AR15/AR10/Black Rifle List (25-Dec Update)
- Thread starter blaxsun
- Start date
Aprilia Man
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Canadian "WET" Coast (Raincouver)
How about adding "Manufacturer Warranty" on the list?
nastybubba
Regular
- Location
- saskatchewan
Adcor no mention of Adcor. have you ever handled one. front and rear charging handle. amazing piston system that is up for american military testing right now. they are starting to make there way into canada via a CGN dealer. they are a beautiful AR, you can't make a list like this with out having first hand experience with each one. As soon as i pick up mine this friday, its time for some video.
Tend to agree...this thread contains essentially no objective information other than pricing.
- Location
- The Hammer, ON
its there.
blaxsun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Happy now? It's not like there's a quick reference on what's available, or one that has a reference of comparable rifles. But by all means, please feel free to improve upon this. It's not like some of you criticizing have anything really constructive to offer anyway.
Winterkrieg
Regular
M4 Chart by Rob S, 2007: https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html
M4 Chart by Rob S, 2011: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spr...akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html
M4 Chart by Rob S, 2011: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spr...akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html
Entirely subjective.At least with respect to the other tiers, anyway. Adcor also uses an FN barrel, so they might be pushing Tier 1.
I'm usually not one to jump on unfamiliar products since I'm not found of being a beta tester. That being said I did as much homework as I could on this including opinions by those who have seen them live (blaxsun was one of those who has and whose opinion I asked for). I have one of these on order. Along with almost all the other parts to put together this AR. Everything has been a wait as nothing was in stock. The first components I was able to acquire were the buffer springs and the stock. Now the PWS enhanced buffer tube and Spikes T2 buffers have arrived. Still waiting for the stripped lower, and the LPK kit. Of course I'm also still waiting for the ADCOR upper.
Here's the information I've found from what little there is on the ADCOR elite specs:
The upper is 7075-T6 including the rail. The Daniel Defense rails for instance are 6061-T6 Aluminum. The Daniel Defense rifles on the famous list are a match for the colt specs. On a side note ADCOR made uppers for Colt.
From what I've been able to find on the net regarding the ADCOR Elite:
-FN Manufacturing 1:7 twist, hammer-forged,chrome-lined barrel with M249 rifling profile (ADCOR website)
-Aircraft-grade 7075-T6 aluminum alloy receivers and rail systems (ADCOR website)
From M4carbine forum posting by Grand58742
ADCOR piston and below is their DI system.
Information provided by ADCOR on M4carbine forum: Posted by Adcor Defense
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BlackArrow
New member
- Location
- B.C. Canada
I would rate DPMS Higher, I have a DPMS Oracle, with a 10.5" barrel, and it shoots much better than a ton of other rifles, even in excess of 200yds.
Yup it's a good low cost consumer grade AR rifle. I have a 308 target rifle by DPMs. But the specs are significantly less than what is expected for a work firearm. No doubt great for the range and a good value for shooting. So is the Norinco by the way. They shoot well. that being said both rifles deserve to be in the scale they are. They are lower rung rifles. The high end stuff by DPMS is decent but the cost is the same as other companies not known for consumer grade products. So why bother buying a DPMS version?
You seem to be making the statement that a higher end "quality" DPMS would somehow be lower quality than a Colt or a KAC and etc. Well... if the DPMS is built to the same specs as the Colt then aren't you just paying for the Colt name on the rifle? What evidence do you have that a rifle made by another manufacturer wouldn't be able to perform and function as well as a colt regardless of price? What evidence is there that only guns adhering to the TDP 100% are superior performing to non subscribers?
Also, you mentioned that the Norinco is a consumer grade AR, and should be in the scale they are... so I am curious what are the specs of the Norinco? I don't mean the "barn" spec jokes, I mean what are the factual specs that are known? Do you know what the alloy used in the upper is, what steel are the barrels made from?(and etc.) Do we have any idea the materials, manufacturing process, testing and etc that Norinco used in order to compare them accurately to a Colt? The Norc are in service with a few military around the world and the only difference between the contract guns and the Canadian retail version is a lack of the full auto selector group... so how can you put the Norc in with a DPMS which is marketed as a civilian product? Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Norinco is the best product out there, but it is a soundly built rifle that is in service so it needs to have a bit more respect than lumping it in with the bottom of the barrel guns simply because it is low cost and made in China.
As well I am assuming you are using the TDP as being the criteria for Tier 1? As I understand it, Colt owns the TDP and the US just uses that data ( i could be wrong but that was my understanding), so where do firearms using proprietary or (debatable) better manufacturing processes, alloys and metal treatments fall then if they are superior to whatever colt is using? Does a difference in testing make a big difference ?(Batch testing a bolt vs testing each bolt)
If your saying that rifle A meets 100% of the TDP so it is tier 1, but Rifle B met only %80 of the TDP so it is tier 2, is that really a fair comparison if Rifle B is built better and has better features/build quality/alloy treatments and etc.
On a separate note, I think people here are putting way to much faith into the TDP. Meeting the TDP does not necessarily mean that another AR15 which does not meet all TDP requirements will have a shorter lifespan, be less reliable, less accurate or etc. What performance measures are you using to claim that a Colt will have superior performance to a LMT, DPMS, Norc or a NEA? # of rounds before a failure? # of rounds before a jam/FTF or some mechanical malfunction? # of rounds before accuracy is unacceptable? group size? accuracy? torture tests?
Even if we were in utopia and we had FA lowers, Suppressors and high cap mags, how would the performance change comparing a Colt to a LMT that puts a Colt in a Tier above (by all means) the identical LMT rifle (in form and function)?
I am just wondering, because it seems like this tier scale is more attuned to price points and gear features vs actual tangible performance gains on the users end.
That's interesting because that's actually not what I said at all. What I stated was that DPMS makes a lot of lower level consumer grade stuff. Their higher end stuff is still associated to the lower end stuff which begs the question why would you buy their higher end stuff when you can buy from a company that only makes top grade stuff.
I'm loosly using the TDP. Only because a number of the features are there to try and keep failures due to parts to a minimum. I don't consider all of the specs to be that important. In some cases there are sollutions that exceed those specs. For instance the castle nut being staked. Well my two new AR15 lowers being built will have the PWS enhanced buffer tube. There isn't a castle nut. I consider this better than the specs.
Here's the real difference you seem to be missing:
Bolt carrier groups on top grade stuff are HPT, MPI and shot peened. These tests are not cheap to perform on every bolt and shows the companys commitment for excellence. Lower grade stuff will employ some of this and in some cases none of this. The DPMS isn't shot peened even on their higher end stuff. It should also be noted that on sites such as AR15 forum that DPMS is probably number 1 for bolt related failures. Some of those guys drive their stuff hard.
Also lets get to the metals as you mentioned. Many of the DPMS products are 6066-T6 Aircraft Aluminum Alloy for the uppers and lowers. Their higher grade stuff is Forged 7075 T6 as it should be for the standard. Another difference: Carpenter 158 is used on the high end BCG while DPMS uses 8620. This may have changed as it always is with firearms companies. Trying to find the specs through DPMS though is tough. It's very easy with the companies that offer a product catering to military or police.
The Noricno shoots great. But... who knows what the specs are. the forgings are to spec but the fit/finish of them shows less care in the product frankly. People changing stuff out have found it not to be to the normal specs and that it's a crap shoot as to the specs. Barrels are said to last only half as long as the high end ones. That being said I have shot one and it worked very well. It was accurate and yes would shoot as well as the higher end stuff.
Let's also keep in mind it's Norinco. Their consumer grade and professional grade products may not be the same. Look at the SKS. There is a much better surplus military version and the consumer grade versions. We don't know what specs the military ones are vs the specs the consumer market ones are. They may very well be different.
Ultimately I agree with you that for most of us it doesn't really matter. A more accurate firearm will probably be a lot better. But if a rifle has extra features or extra quality control in place for their products then that gives it credibility in the stats and name brand recognition.
Let's also look at it this way. Let's make a computer comparison. An AMD based system may depending on the model etc be just as good or possibly better than the Intel version at the same product level. But... with Intel you know what you're getting. It's a sure thing. If it were your job to purchase the equipment and you opted for the AMD sollution well good stuff. Very progressive thinking. Save money get a product as good or better. But... the moment something goes wrong you're the one who will be looked at for the acquisition. They had a saying in the computer office world. Nobody ever got fired for buying Intel.
Most people want what the professionals are using. The theory is if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.
