Cold weather load development

358Rooster

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Hey guys. Just wondering what some of you die hard, do-it-all-year-round types have to offer about cold weather load development. Truth be told, I've never really done it. I've always managed to get my stuff sorted out in the summer / fall and in hunting situations, I've never knowingly encountered negative effects of cold weather use of "warm weather loads". Come to think of it now, there had been a few unexplained, "that coyote was dead - I don't know what happened..." events. At the time, I was using a super-accurate load of 3031 with 58 V-max's in my .243. Of course, it was developed in warm weather and I know 3031 is temperature finicky.

At any rate, now, I have a brand new custom .284 and I need to pull my boys out of the purse and get down to it. I'm wondering how much difference there might be next summer with loads that I try to develop now (-10 to -20 C), using H4831SC. I'm sure there will be some but I have no real idea what to expect. I don't think I'm completely wasting my time with a powder such as this, am I?

Rooster
 
I wouldn't think you are wasting anything. You could always reduce the load next summer by a grain or two and work back up to see what happens, you might be pleasantly surprised!

I like reloading too much and work up loads too often actually, so this time of year I always find myself trying something new, and by next summer I am doing it all again.

I haven't yet loaded a round in winter that was high in pressure in the summer, but very few of my loads are close enough to the max for the rifle that it would matter.
 
I was shooting 223 in -10'C and my groups wouldn't go smaller than 2 MOA no matter what I did. The load was developed in the summer and shot 1/2 MOA in the same rifle. Not sure if it was the powder (H4198) or temperature fluctuations in the barrel. Rifle is a H&R single shot heavy barrel break action.
 
Hey Cleftwynd! You were one of a couple guys i figured might chime in here. Appreciate the input very much!

Kinda what I was thinking. Although I have no real control group, I thought backing down a touch and working back up in fairly short order is likely the worst that I'd be up against. Anybody offer anything regarding ill-effects of things like air density differences at longer ranges between the temperature extremes? Or am I just over thinking this? As though I could identify the differences....:rolleyes:
 
I'm not sure but I think 4198 is an older powder that isn't part of the "extreme" lineup, is it? Maybe that's the problem? Maybe I have no stinking idea what I'm talking about? Yep, that last one's probably on the mark!

I always use to tend to stay away from verifying warm weather loads in cold weather, lest the truth reveal itself! Like I said, boys out of the purse, i guess...
 
Some report more reliable ignition in the winter with larger casings using magnum primers. One member stated his summer load worked out identical accross the chrony in the winter by just switching to magnum primers. I have not tested this theory. And if it works, it might only be in certain chamberings/powder/bullet weight combos.

What distances do you expect to use the 284 at, and what size groups are acceptable to you? If you need minute of coyote at 300 yards it migh not be as critical as say minute of fox at 600 yards. I would find a load that uses powder filling 90%+ of the brass and magnum primers and go from there if it was me. Then come warmer weather, either use a totally new worked up load in a different powder/primer, or just reduce and rework it up from a grain or two less. The latter would be the most economical, and theoretically should still remain as accurate as at -20.

I have never worried about "temperature sensitive" powders until I read about them on the net. However since I was unaware I wasn't looking for it either, poor grouping was blamed on colder barrel, uneven barrel temps, denser air, or whatever, possibly my own shivering! I can't say for sure if the temperature sensitive issue is as drastic as some would have us believe or not, I am just not experienced enough testing it, and have not seen anything to prove or disprove it yet. I do however know that some of my loads are much slower when the mercury drops compared to hot days. Most say IMR powder is more temp sensitive... could be. Your own testing will answer that for you just fine I bet!

I am sure someone with more definite answers will chiime in and help, I don't have much more to offer, not that it was much to begin with! lol

.
 
My main 223 load was developed last winter and is fine all year round. My 30-06 loads were developed in august and I cant shoot them in the winter. Flat primers, cracked brass, and am getting 100-150 fps more then in the fall.
 
I have been doing quite a bit of loading and shooting this winter, some 222, 243, and 250 Savage. Our range has an indoor area with a furnace. 4 shooting benches behind sliding plywood windows inside an old quanset hut. The range is 100 yards, 30 of it coverered then very high sides on the berms. I try not to turn the furnace on as scopes can fog up quickley. But right out of any breeze and if is minus 20 or colder I'll flick on the furnace.
I have shot some great groups with the new 250 Savage so far. FS
 
Some report more reliable ignition in the winter with larger casings using magnum primers. One member stated his summer load worked out identical accross the chrony in the winter by just switching to magnum primers. I have not tested this theory. And if it works, it might only be in certain chamberings/powder/bullet weight combos.

What distances do you expect to use the 284 at, and what size groups are acceptable to you? If you need minute of coyote at 300 yards it migh not be as critical as say minute of fox at 600 yards. I would find a load that uses powder filling 90%+ of the brass and magnum primers and go from there if it was me. Then come warmer weather, either use a totally new worked up load in a different powder/primer, or just reduce and rework it up from a grain or two less. The latter would be the most economical, and theoretically should still remain as accurate as at -20.

I have never worried about "temperature sensitive" powders until I read about them on the net. However since I was unaware I wasn't looking for it either, poor grouping was blamed on colder barrel, uneven barrel temps, denser air, or whatever, possibly my own shivering! I can't say for sure if the temperature sensitive issue is as drastic as some would have us believe or not, I am just not experienced enough testing it, and have not seen anything to prove or disprove it yet. I do however know that some of my loads are much slower when the mercury drops compared to hot days. Most say IMR powder is more temp sensitive... could be. Your own testing will answer that for you just fine I bet!

I am sure someone with more definite answers will chiime in and help, I don't have much more to offer, not that it was much to begin with! lol

.

Me thinks you don't give yourself enough credit, my friend!

To ME, changing "mechanical" variables such as powder or primer, is classified as waste. At least, for my intents and purposes. What I would like to see is this; a load that shoots well now, that may take some final tweaking in warmer weather to shoot really well. After all Cleftwynd, not everybody is privvy to a heated shooting shack!;) I won't be using my .284 as a coyote rifle unless the situation conveniently presents itself. I have other rifles for that when used deliberately. This is my first venture into precision rifle type stuff. I have tried many years to get factory rifles to shoot like precision rigs with varying results - some fantastic, some disgusting. I intend to use this thing to get accurately to 1000 yards and possibly beyond, to attempt to develop skills I have dreamt about since I was a kid and knowing that my rifle is not the likely culprit when I fail. As far as numbers go, I've talked to several guys that say if you have a rifle that shows you 1 MOA, it'll do well at the 1k mark. Honestly, if I could hit a sheet of plywood consistantly at that range, I'd be excited. Well, not quite, but it would sure do a lot for my confidence in my equipment and ability.

At closer ranges (that I'm very used to) I have a 5/8" group at 264 yards with a factory rifle that I would LOVE to beat! If I do, I think I'll just quit. Uh......nah!

My 30-06 loads were developed in august and I cant shoot them in the winter. Flat primers, cracked brass, and am getting 100-150 fps more then in the fall.
Wow! How the heck is this possible? That kinda goes against everything I've read or experienced. That seems goofy as this dang :dancingbanana: but there has to be some logical explanation, no? Maybe you're shooting a chinese surplus female rifle? Just kidding buddy. Ooooh, I gotta remember; engage brain, then mouth....

Work up your loads in the winter, final test is heat them up on truck vent and shoot . Will give you an idea on summer "issues".

Ya know, I never thought of that. But it would seem that this may have some validity, providing one could maintain the elevated temperature of the cartridges through to detonation. Sounds like a Mythbusters type of project. Perhaps for someone with a fancy heated shooting shack?!?!;)Laugh2 Okay, I'm done:jerkit:
 
I have been doing quite a bit of loading and shooting this winter, some 222, 243, and 250 Savage. Our range has an indoor area with a furnace. 4 shooting benches behind sliding plywood windows inside an old quanset hut. The range is 100 yards, 30 of it coverered then very high sides on the berms. I try not to turn the furnace on as scopes can fog up quickley. But right out of any breeze and if is minus 20 or colder I'll flick on the furnace.
I have shot some great groups with the new 250 Savage so far. FS

Mmmmm, 222, 250.... Good on ya! Cartridges on my list as well!

Furnace? Really? Did you mention that just to see if I'd cry? Well it worked. I hope you're happy! Gotta be empty nesters, you guys!f:P:
 
FWIW, the importance of temperature sensitivity [or lack thereof] of various powders is overrated.
It is true that some powders lose enough velocity in the cold weather to affect the trajectory somewhat.
How much depends on several factors.

I have seen a drop of 150 fps from +20ºC to -25ºC with W760.
The accuracy was still there, just a bit more drop out past 300.

The key is shooting your load in the colder weather.

IF you develop a load in cold weather, it is unwise to shoot it in warmer temps
without dropping back a little and working up again.

If I anticipate shooting in temps below -10ºC, Magnum primers get the nod except in very small capacity cases.

Regards, Eagleye
 
I knew one of the gurus would step in, thanks Eagleye.

I would assume the reason for not using MLR primers in smaller casings is just because of the smaller powder charge. Would there be any safety reasons not to use them in the smaller brass? Or is it just a waste.... For the record, I am not toying with the idea, I will stick to CCI match either way for smaller centerfire.

My goto magnum primer has been federal, haven't needed to try any others yet, what is your preference Eagleye?



Btw, a cooler with a heat source like a "magic bag" or two to keep your ammo very warm might help as well. For testing purposes. I have seen guys heating rocks on a camp stove and placing them in a cooler as well, seemed like too much work to me lol
 
FWIW, the importance of temperature sensitivity [or lack thereof] of various powders is overrated.
It is true that some powders lose enough velocity in the cold weather to affect the trajectory somewhat.
How much depends on several factors.

I have seen a drop of 150 fps from +20ºC to -25ºC with W760.
The accuracy was still there, just a bit more drop out past 300.

The key is shooting your load in the colder weather.

IF you develop a load in cold weather, it is unwise to shoot it in warmer temps
without dropping back a little and working up again.

If I anticipate shooting in temps below -10ºC, Magnum primers get the nod except in very small capacity cases.

Regards, Eagleye

Hey Eagleye. Thrilled you dropped in here!

Good to know about the accuracy / precision reference. I've often wondered about such things myself; as long as everything is consistent (including temperature), shouldn't you just need to compensate?

Magnum primers: used to bring velocities back up to summertime velocity "ranges"? Honestly, I've never tested the use of magnum primers in non-magnum cases. With my .243 and 22-250, I use only CCI BR-2 primers that have produced very good results (again, in warmer weather), unless I load some occasional not-so-important coyote rounds. And before anyone jumps on me, 99% of the coyotes I shoot are between 6 and 120 yards. I intend, based on everything I've read about .284 precision, to use BR-2's. Should I maybe try 215M's in the winter? Wait a second, that contradicts what I said to Cleftwynd a while back, doesn't it? Has anyone ended up in the looney bin over this type of stuff?
 
I knew one of the gurus would step in, thanks Eagleye.

I would assume the reason for not using MLR primers in smaller casings is just because of the smaller powder charge. Would there be any safety reasons not to use them in the smaller brass? Or is it just a waste.... For the record, I am not toying with the idea, I will stick to CCI match either way for smaller centerfire.

My goto magnum primer has been federal, haven't needed to try any others yet, what is your preference Eagleye?



Btw, a cooler with a heat source like a "magic bag" or two to keep your ammo very warm might help as well. For testing purposes. I have seen guys heating rocks on a camp stove and placing them in a cooler as well, seemed like too much work to me lol

Should imagine that mag primers in non-mag cases with slow powders of a lesser charge / lesser temp would be okay, following usual pressure sign indication inspection procedure.

Personally, here on the bald-azz prairie, I'd have trouble keeping my "magic bag" effectively filled with rocks heated by any method, given the layout of my range! Oh yeah, I spoke about a purse earlier, didn't I?V:I:
 
For the record, I didn't mean switching to magnum primers without working up a new load.

Welcome to the club of confusion, misinformation and contradictions. CMC!
 
Yeah, you bet. I'm with you 100%. Generally recommended practice when changing any single component / variable.

As for the confusion, etc; I'm just glad there's guys like you and Eagleye to squelch some of the voices, be they internal or otherwise!
 
After 35 years living in the frozen f**k**g arctic, I think I may be qualified to give some advice here. I do shoot and work up loads in the winter, a lot. I am much more worried about what may happen when you work up a load in -20 and then take somewhere hot to hunt or even the begining of sheep season here when it may be +25, than I am the reverse.
I keep my loads on the dash of my truck with the engine running and heater on full defrost, when ready to shoot a load I go to the truck take out the 4 or 5 shells, place them in my shirt pocket inside my parka then set up and shoot my group taking one shell from my shirt at a time. This keeps my ammo and powder at about +25 at all times and I don't have to worry about next summer or Africa. I usually have several guns at once at the range so I will take 4 different calibers at once to the bench, one load group per inside pocket, two in my shirt and two inside pockets in my parka. This has worked for me for the last 35 years you might give it a try.
 
I developed a load in late summer for a .338 WM that was showing signs of being hot but performed flawlessly in the cool of hunting.

250 grain Nosler partitions with 72.0 grains of IMR4831 and Federal Mag Rifle primers were under 2" at 200 yards.

the H powders are considered to be less temperature sensitive, and the ReLoader powders more sensitive.
 
I knew one of the gurus would step in, thanks Eagleye.

I would assume the reason for not using MLR primers in smaller casings is just because of the smaller powder charge. Would there be any safety reasons not to use them in the smaller brass? Or is it just a waste.... For the record, I am not toying with the idea, I will stick to CCI match either way for smaller centerfire.

My goto magnum primer has been federal, haven't needed to try any others yet, what is your preference Eagleye?

No, there is no reason not to use a magnum primer with the smaller cases, but load development would need to be revisited, of course.

My reason for staying with standard primers in cases like the 222 is the smaller capacity makes these smaller cases more sensitive to what would otherwise be "minor" changes.

One exception is the 6mm BR, where the CCI 450 is Always used.

I use Federal, Remington, CCI and Winchester primers, in standard and magnum permutations.

I guess if I had to pick a favorite, I would choose Winchester, but in my practice, all have a place. [I even have some Wolf and RWS in my stash, lol.]

Regards, and great shooting! Eagleye.
 
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