Exceptional M14/M1A Precision?

[358Rooster]

Kind of along the same line as another thread, I'm interested to see the exceptional precision results from your M14 / M1A type rifles. I'm always reading about good 1 to 1.5MOA and, of course, lots of 3MOA "good enough for me" stuff but are there any of you consistantly coming in under that? I stress consistantly. There's always the chance, "I shot a 3/4" group one time, so this is a 3/4 minute gun" that, make no mistake, can happen from time to time but does not constitiute a sub MOA gun.

Some guys have done seemingly unlimited stuff to their rifles and others are quite happy pounding away with the thing in its raw form. Would be kind of interesting to see exceptional results from both the hot rodded stuff and the, "meh....it's just a battle rifle but it'll shoot the lips off a chicken at 100 yards any time I ask it to", don't ya think? If you have one of these rifles and the "system" will shoot several groups in a row with sub-minute precision, post 'em up! And I don't care if it's a rifle that you traded your first born for or one you traded a mouldy hot dog for, scoped or otherwise.

Stealing pretty much directly from the other thread (though not as stringent):
- Post a single piece of paper with as many sub-minute groups in a row at 100 yards as you can possibly squeeze out
- Show your rifle and set up
- List all modifications, parts, tricks, voodoo, chicken sacrifices, etc. you've done to get those consistant sub-minute groups.

I really don't care to see five, five-shot groups because hey, it's a battle rifle. But at the very least, shoot three-shot group minimums and let's have a bare minimum of two groups - I think it's a good starting point. And if you can keep going, by all means do so! We've all seen lots of guys posting their ~2" 100 yard groups. I think we can conclude that a lot of these guns are near capable of that, so I just want to see the really special stuff.

Rooster

P.S. Personally, I will not be making a contribution to this club.....yet....

 

[cancer]

This rifle:

Could consistently shoot groups small enough to do this at 75 yards with the right loads.

Man I miss that rifle. It was perfect. But now it's someone elses.

 

[1899]

I was just thinking about this too! I read some of Mystic Precision's stuff on the M305, and note that lots of folks are doing smaller tune up mods. Have any of you done bigger $ stuff like maybe McMillan stock and Krieger barrel? What were the results?

 

[358Rooster]

Okay, let's try and stay focused now!

Cancer; nice rig. Hard to explain why we do some things, huh? And nice shot. Now, if there had've been two more in that quarter....

1899; that's kind of where I'm coming from. Been reading a lot and doing some tinkering but haven't been out in a while to test results of said tinkering. I'm curious to see what some guys who really pay special attention to their rifles, ammunition and technique are able to acheive.

There is a thread around here somewhere about the money that guys have dumped into these rifles versus the actual resulting benefit acheived and I don't want to exactly duplicate that here. I do, however, want to see if anyone is in that minute or less club, regardless of investment.

Rooster

 

[1899]

Rooster - as a side note I was reading the US Military guide on accurizing, and to meet National Match standards the rifle needs to shoot 3 consecutive 10 shot groups at 300 meters with an average group size no greater than 6".

 

[358Rooster]

Holy crap! And that's with irons, is it not? Don't know if I could do that with a scope with mine!

 

[1899]

It is in a cradle. Here is a link, see page 3:
http://www.m14.ca/accurizing/m14_m1_accurizing.pdf

 

[blueoval56]

This M305 will print a consistent 1.3-1.5 inch group with factory Winchester 168gr match. I haven't done a whole lot of load developement yet, but it has printed a couple 1 MOA groups.
I'm still learning the best techniques for reloading semi's.

Here's some pics:

 

[Bakersfield7.62]

That's a nice rifle right there^^^ magpul and the RS look like a match made in m14 Valhalla !

 

[blueoval56]

That's a nice rifle right there^^^ magpul and the RS look like a match made in m14 Valhalla !

It most certainly is

My only complaint is the junction of where the PRS connects to the stock and the pistol grip meets. Not a lot of room to get your hand high enough on the pistol grip for prone shooting, but it's something that is easily adapted to.
I initially had a CTR on it but I like the PRS much better. It makes it heavier over all, but much better balanced.

When I get back form work, I will put some effort into load developement and playing with the barrel tension via the op-rod guide and give a review/ range report(something ive been meaning to do for months).

Overall, I really like the way it's set up. The only thing I'll be changing is the scope. It has a Millet 6-25x56 right now and I'll be replacing it with a Bushnell 2.5-16 tactical or Sightron 2.5-10. Haven't made up my mind on that one yet.

 

[358Rooster]

You my boy Blue! That is a ###y rig! Would love to have a Blackfeather myself but can't justify the cost against other prioritized "wants" just now. For now, I'll just keep plugging away with the crap wood stock. Still haven't shot it since I bedded and installed the spring guide. Once the wind dies a bit, I'll try to get out and print something respectable enough to post here....maybe... I'm thinking there's at least potential - prior to bedding, ORSG, and unitizing, I was able to fairly consistantly print 1.5-ish groups with handloaded 168 SMK's.

Rooster

 

[blueoval56]

Haha thanks man. I really like the way it turned out.

Would care to share your load that was doing so well for you? Being that the 168's don't have a crimping groove, do you use a lot of neck tension?
I'm going to play around with 150gr class bullets as well as 168's to see what shoots best. Maybe a 110gr varmint load as well.

 

[1899]

blueoval - is that with the factory barrel?

 

[blueoval56]

blueoval - is that with the factory barrel?

Yes it is. I thought about re-barreling to a medium weight to complete the package but decided against it for now. I'll shoot this barrel out and have some fun then maybe replace down the road.
Plus, I'm curious how well the factory barrel can be tuned.

 

[blueoval56]

I find one of the biggest downsides of the factory barrel is that it heats up damn fast. Those 1.3-1.5 inch groups are with 3-5 minutes cooling time between each shot in the interest of obtaining the best groups possible.
If I don't allow for cooling time and just shoot a few 5 shot groups, they open up to 2-2.5 MOA

 

[358Rooster]

Haha thanks man. I really like the way it turned out.

Would care to share your load that was doing so well for you? Being that the 168's don't have a crimping groove, do you use a lot of neck tension?
I'm going to play around with 150gr class bullets as well as 168's to see what shoots best. Maybe a 110gr varmint load as well.

Super simple; 41.7 gr H4895 and WLR primers. Thinking maybe I just got really lucky. IIRC, they run about 2660 fps....ish. I had actually tried IMR 4064 as well (think it was 41.0 gr.) and to be honest, it shot a little better. Being the first semi-auto centerfire I've ever had, I was a bit worried that the slower burn rate / different pressure curve might affect the longevity of the rifle (over many, many rounds, I'm sure) so I went with H4895 and got good enough results I never really looked back. I think I worry too much...

I've been meaning to load up some Speer 125 TNT's for just messin' around with when I feel like putting on a headband, my duct tape vest, and running around like a jackass shooting stuff you could normally just throw a stone at But I haven't yet. They've shot really well for me from other .308's.

As far as neck tension goes, just what the Lee RGB dies give me. Seat at 2.820" and go. I tend to be really fussy about brass sizing and prep, charge weights, bullet runout, etc. and this has carried over to loading for the Norc. The only exceptions are flash hole deburring and primer pocket uniforming. I've never had an issue with primers sitting high and I managed to finally convince myself that flash hole deburring probably won't show any meaningful returns in this gun.

Rooster

 

[358Rooster]

Well I got a b*tch slap of reality today. Went out to the range despite 20km/hr half-value winds to sight in my new rear sight (thanks spcamno!) and sight in the scope mounted in QRW's on my newly-acquired ARMS 18 copy (thanks Pop!) Also wanted to see what all the crap I'd done to my Norc lately has netted me. To say the least, it sucked! I don't know what I've done but it's not good. First shots were fairly consistantly just above and to the right of POA, second shot always high/right, third near POA, fourth high/right, fifth always straight below POA. This sequence was repeated the same way four times. My worst spread today was likely about 4". I only took three shots with the iron sights: sighter, made adjustment, fired two more that landed about 2" apart from each other and thought, "good enough!"

Guessing (hoping) it's my optic setup. Not sure how much pressure to put on the front pad in that mount but I put a fair bit on. I'm also damn near out of windage adjustment as well. Looks like I have some more reading to do........

On a more positive note, my 22-250 and .280 shot like champs considering the conditions. Day wasn't completely ruined I guess.

Rooster

 

[Chris S]

On the arms 18 did you remove the c clip ? It can make a difference in the end result !
There should be some info on cgn from 45acpking or hungery on the best way to install the arms mount.

 

[blueoval56]

Sorry to hear about that!
Tuning an m14 can be a frustrating endevour. Definitely sounds like a scope/ mount issue. If for any reason there was any "stress" induced in the bedding job, that might have something to do with it.

 

[358Rooster]

I looked at Hungry's tips in the stickies last night. I'll make a few adjustments today. I got the mount used from Pop (fellow CGNer) and Pop got it used from someone else, so I'm guessing someone before me lost or discarded the c-clip. At least I can eliminate that. I may do a bit of shimming to better align the mount with the bore - don't know how much faith I have in just the dovetail holding position in this gun.

I really couldn't find much with regard to bedding 'how to' for these rifles, so I just tried to use common sense. I bedded the top of the stock along the whole length of the receiver and saw last night that you're only supposed to bed the heel area and forward of the bolt release and then the trigger pads and the rear "tang" of the trigger mech. Is this about right? Supposedly, there's supposed to be a small gap between the front of the heel area to just forward of the bolt release? i can't see that bedding the full length in a stress free manner would make any real difference but I'm not exactly one to critique M14 tuning methodology! I've always been a bolt gun guy and this thing is definitely a different animal!

I feel pretty confident that it's the scope / mount because it sure showed better manners with the irons. I know I only fired three rounds but I was actually more accurate with those than I was at 16X with the scope.

Rooster