First time at range with my m14

Thank you sir.

m39a2 said:
One more thing, please make sure your muzzle is pointed at the butts when you release that bolt and let it go forward. If, for some reason you had a slam fire, your round would have gone over the backstop.

It looks like you had a pierced primer, by the way.

Scott
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Pierced primer is what I was gently trying to say earlier. He should also check his firing pin tip now (with a magnifying glass). A pierced primer can chip a bit off the firing pin tip. That is a bad thing, as with a chipped, now sharply pointed firing pin,you will tend to get more pierced primers if you don't replace the firing pin. I'm not tacticool:cool:, I'm old and been there, done that.
 
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big bear said:
Pierced primer is what I was gently trying to say earlier. He should also check his firing pin tip now (with a magnifying glass). A pierced primer can chip a bit off the firing pin tip. That is a bad thing, as with a chipped, now sharply pointed firing pin,you will tend to get more pierced primers if you don't replace the firing pin. I'm not tacticool:cool:, I'm old and been there, done that.
Click to expand...
Double checked, the firing pin is fine!
 
"...without resizing it..." Most like cause an instant failure to feed. Semi-autos require FL resizing every time.
You're seeing normal smoke from 'smokeless' powder. If there was a headspace issue or any other issue you'd see smoke on every shot.
 
Dice as stated it looks like a pierced primer episode. Try to make sure you have the offending brass to verify. Light hand-loads can produce gas blow by around a partially sealed chamber with resultant smudged cases and pushed out primers, but I don't think that was your problem. The M-14 has a heavy primer strike to overcome a heavily fouled rifle in battle and to sufficiently indent milspec primer cups that are a little thicker to prevent slam fires in this type firearm with floating firing pins.

My Norinco has pierced two factory rounds in about 800 rounds. The ammo being used,...you guessed it,.. S&B FMJ. I was unaware of the problem as the shooter till I checked my brass latter.I feel the primer cups are somewhat soft/thin and would be more of a plus when used in light striking .308Winchester sporting rifles like my Browning Lever .308 or similar.

If I were to want to shoot hundreds or thousands of rounds of a particular type of ammo like the S&B,.... I would probably detune the hammer spring till I got acceptable penetration into the cup. I still have a few boxes in my ammo case, but they just sit there while I shoot mostly Norinco 762X51.
 
You do not cure slam fires by under sizing the brass, that’s just ridiculous.

When you have a chamber that is too large for the brass you have 3 options.
1) Fix the rifle so the chamber is the correct size
2) Obtain brass that fits the oversize chamber
3) Bury your head in the sand and keep on shooting cheap ammo.

For the purpose of this discussion, let’s forget about option 1 and 3.

So… How do we obtain brass that fits the oversize chamber?
Answer: That’s easy shoot it. Once fired brass will expand to fit the chamber of the rifle it was fired in.

When you resize this once fired brass you leave the full length resizing die unscrewed just enough to produce the desired headspace. Forget about saami spec! If your rifle is .015” over saami then size the cases to saami plus .015”. This is not complicated.

Since we are talking semi autos here, there does need to be a certain amount of clearance so the round can feed and not stick during extraction. Since we are talking about FL resize that will not be a problem because the round IS being resized.

When you FL resize the brass the body diameter will be squeezed down so you will not have a failure to feed. You will also need to set the headspace just a few thousandths of an inch shorter than the chamber. I assume most of you don’t have proper headspace gages for the brass, so for many of you, this may be the tricky part.

If you know the headspace oversize amount of your rifle from a formal measurement being taken just float the resizing die above the shell holder by the same amount using feeler gages. My guess is for most of you guys you should probably go somewhere between .010” and .015”.

You can prove to yourself that the headspace is not oversize by taking the operating rod and trigger group out of the rifle and cycling the bolt with your resized brass. If the bolt closes without resistance you do not have excessive headspace.

If you are not confident of the amount, just start somewhere. You can increase the feeler gage thickness a little at a time. Load a few and test a few until you get it just right.
 
sunray said:
"...without resizing it..." Most like cause an instant failure to feed. Semi-autos require FL resizing every time.
You're seeing normal smoke from 'smokeless' powder. If there was a headspace issue or any other issue you'd see smoke on every shot.
Click to expand...

Most semis do but the m305 you can neck size. I know it's a safe argument to make that you have to do it every time on a semi, but it's just not the case for these rifles.
 
Buy an RCBS precision micrometer for 308 and measure your own once fired brass to get your head space dimension(that's what Hungry is doing). Then full length resize it so that it headspaces .002-.003 under your chamber dimension. You will have adequate clearance but will avoid overworking your brass. If your headspace is excessive have your rifle repaired. Do not neck size for an M14. Yes many target shooters with bolt action rifles do but you can get away with some crush on a cartridge case with bolt actions. In military rifles with full floating firing pins anything that prevents a round from chambering easily could contribute to a slam fire. That is something best read about.
 
Rocket Surgery said:
Most semis do but the m305 you can neck size. I know it's a safe argument to make that you have to do it every time on a semi, but it's just not the case for these rifles.
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Really? Why exactly is that? You know fellas there is a ton of information out there written by experts on these rifles and I have never seen any of them say it was ok to neck size. If you reload most will tell you to use small base dies for any semi auto military rifle and lots will say don't reload for them at all.
 
This slam fire paranoia is out of control.
You don't F#$K up your headspace as a "cure" for slam fires.

These guns with excessive headspace do not have excessive headspace as an intentional cure for slam fires. They are cheap rifles that are not produced to aerospace tolerances. That's all it is. They should have the correct headspace, but just too often don't.

Springfields are not known for sloppy chambers, yet according to half the guys in this thread... they should. That's nuts.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing for some people.
 
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BadAsMo said:
You do not cure slam fires by under sizing the brass, that’s just ridiculous.

When you have a chamber that is too large for the brass you have 3 options.
1) Fix the rifle so the chamber is the correct size
2) Obtain brass that fits the oversize chamber
3) Bury your head in the sand and keep on shooting cheap ammo.

For the purpose of this discussion, let’s forget about option 1 and 3.

So… How do we obtain brass that fits the oversize chamber?
Answer: That’s easy shoot it. Once fired brass will expand to fit the chamber of the rifle it was fired in.

When you resize this once fired brass you leave the full length resizing die unscrewed just enough to produce the desired headspace. Forget about saami spec! If your rifle is .015” over saami then size the cases to saami plus .015”. This is not complicated.

Since we are talking semi autos here, there does need to be a certain amount of clearance so the round can feed and not stick during extraction. Since we are talking about FL resize that will not be a problem because the round IS being resized.

When you FL resize the brass the body diameter will be squeezed down so you will not have a failure to feed. You will also need to set the headspace just a few thousandths of an inch shorter than the chamber. I assume most of you don’t have proper headspace gages for the brass, so for many of you, this may be the tricky part.

If you know the headspace oversize amount of your rifle from a formal measurement being taken just float the resizing die above the shell holder by the same amount using feeler gages. My guess is for most of you guys you should probably go somewhere between .010” and .015”.

You can prove to yourself that the headspace is not oversize by taking the operating rod and trigger group out of the rifle and cycling the bolt with your resized brass. If the bolt closes without resistance you do not have excessive headspace.

If you are not confident of the amount, just start somewhere. You can increase the feeler gage thickness a little at a time. Load a few and test a few until you get it just right.
Click to expand...

I'm thinking this is the best way to go for a hand loader one thing I would like to add is that when you are fire forming your brass to your chamber it might be a good idea to turn the gas valve off so the brass takes a more accurate form of the chamber then use the required tools to read the headspace and set your FL or SB die according then what you have is a norinco long head wild cat !!! Lol makes sense to me
 
"I'm thinking this is the best way to go for a hand loader one thing I would like to add is that when you are fire forming your brass to your chamber it might be a good idea to turn the gas valve off so the brass takes a more accurate form of the chamber then use the required tools to read the headspace and set your FL or SB die according then what you have is a norinco long head wild cat !!! Lol makes sense to me "

Haaa !
This does make sense to me too. Im a cheap bas#$rd and to stretch my day at the range I turned the gas off before I even started reloading. This had the result of tightening my grous somewhat and gave me no opportunity to rush thru my shots. I did a wee bit of reading and it seems that the brass does fireform in the chamber properly, if that's the correct terminology. All my brass is only ever fired in my chamber and all new cases need to have at least 9 to 14 thou trimmed off after the first firing, then they are good to go for the next 4 to 7 reloads. I havent seen any shoulder problems or cracked necks, I just get that shiny ring thing starting to appear down by the head. As soon as I see just a slight hint of different I toss the case. I buy the cheap ammo for those days when I want to turn on the gas and have a giggle.
Im probably doing it all wrong and am not advocating anything to anybody, its just the way I do it. Nobody get to shoot my guns except me and if anyone gets hurt it'll be me, and as of today I can still cross my fingers LOL
Sorry for not using the right terminology.
 
Shot some winchester 150 gr stuff from Canadian tire today, not a single puff of smoke, 40 rounds. I checked the primers on fired brass and yeah, the battle rifle dig pretty hard on it, I'm not surprised the problem was a pierced primer. The owner of the range is a knowledgable person and he explained me some facts that contribute to the smoking, which are oil, brass wasn't sealing well, and pierced primer. Since none of these are dangerous, I think the rifle is safe enough to shot the shat out of it.
 
BadAsMo said:
When the cartridge goes off, the brass normally expands under pressure and creates a seal against the chamber. Since you probably have excessive headspace some of the smoke from the burning powder leaked out before the brass created a seal.

To correct this you have 2 options

1) Save your once fired brass and reload it without resizing it back to sammi spec. Size it to the same headspace as the fired round. This way the round wll fit perfectly next time you fire it.
2) Change the bolt and maybe the barrel to correct the headspace.
Click to expand...

When Reloading for a Garand or M14 DO NOT NECK SIZE! You have to full length resize, because the brass stretches in these guns. The shoulders are now forward of where they are suppose to be and these can lead to firing out of battery. While Neck sizing brass for a bolt gun can make improvements on a bolt or lever gun, it should only be used in that ONE firearm and no others. DO NOT NECK SIZE for a semi auto.
http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf
 
BadAsMo said:
You do not cure slam fires by under sizing the brass, that’s just ridiculous.

When you have a chamber that is too large for the brass you have 3 options.
1) Fix the rifle so the chamber is the correct size
2) Obtain brass that fits the oversize chamber
3) Bury your head in the sand and keep on shooting cheap ammo.

For the purpose of this discussion, let’s forget about option 1 and 3.

So… How do we obtain brass that fits the oversize chamber?
Answer: That’s easy shoot it. Once fired brass will expand to fit the chamber of the rifle it was fired in.

When you resize this once fired brass you leave the full length resizing die unscrewed just enough to produce the desired headspace. Forget about saami spec! If your rifle is .015” over saami then size the cases to saami plus .015”. This is not complicated.

Since we are talking semi autos here, there does need to be a certain amount of clearance so the round can feed and not stick during extraction. Since we are talking about FL resize that will not be a problem because the round IS being resized.

When you FL resize the brass the body diameter will be squeezed down so you will not have a failure to feed. You will also need to set the headspace just a few thousandths of an inch shorter than the chamber. I assume most of you don’t have proper headspace gages for the brass, so for many of you, this may be the tricky part.

If you know the headspace oversize amount of your rifle from a formal measurement being taken just float the resizing die above the shell holder by the same amount using feeler gages. My guess is for most of you guys you should probably go somewhere between .010” and .015”.

You can prove to yourself that the headspace is not oversize by taking the operating rod and trigger group out of the rifle and cycling the bolt with your resized brass. If the bolt closes without resistance you do not have excessive headspace.

If you are not confident of the amount, just start somewhere. You can increase the feeler gage thickness a little at a time. Load a few and test a few until you get it just right.
Click to expand...

I am glad there are a few time zones between us, and if a front sight fall out of the sky and lands at my feet, I will package up your front sight, send it back to you, so you can try sending it and what pieces you have left of your M14 back to Norinco... I am sure that they along with everyone will believe you that it was Norinco's fault that it blew up and not your hand loads. I mean what would 60 plus years of built up knowledge from reloaders, competition shooters, and military testing and proving grounds know about this? I am sure you can teach them all a thing or two.

but in case you don't mind doing some reading and possibly increasing your knowledge base, read through this
http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf
Then come back and tell us again why we are all wrong about full length resizing.
 
I'm thinking that some ppl don't understand that you could full legth sise your brass with out bumping the shoulder all the way back to normal there would be 3 thou tolerance on all dementions case would slip in just like normal the difference would be that the shoulder would not have to grow 30thou to reach that part of the chamber !
 
You are far more likely to get hurt from excessive headspace than properly fitted brass. If you have a sloppy chamber and full length resize back to saami spec every time you reload, then you are work hardening the brass. As it gets harder it becomes much more likely to split under pressure. Then you have a real problem. If you don't get hurt, I hope you have a broken case extractor in your shooting box.

If you just resize your brass just enough to chamber without binding, then you minimize the work hardening, maximize brass life and solve the headspace issue.

In the case of the Zediker article his advice is based on the presumption that you have a properly sized chamber. So much of his advice does not apply to this conversation. He states that cases fired from an M14 may be larger than the chamber of the rifle it was fired from - IF IT WAS FIRED IN SEMI AUTO MODE. Even if that is the situation, the brass can still be resized to fit the chamber. The problem is not making the fired case small enough to fit. It's starting with a case that is big enough for an over size chamber. You end up fire forming.

There is no downside to sizing brass to properly fit the rifles chamber.
 
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