best nr black rifle?

ztunelover said:
Yes because the chinese never copy anything right?

I would like to see the "reliability" of this to be demonstrated before I buy into it. Which wars has this magic rifle seen? Can't think of any can you?
Just because it is claimed to be in current service doesnt mean it is any good. Because the fammas really isnt that great, hence why the french are looking at ditching them. And honestly I find the tavor to be overrated, the israelis could have done better. The only bullpup I really ever liked was the aug. And that is prohib so out of the equation.

And yes the l85 is an updated variant of the sa80 and is one raging pile of ####.

And lets not talk about the black & decker f2.... I mean fn f2000
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You need an AR-15 or two :D
Just because most Norinco stuff is a copy of something doesn't mean everything they make is.
You just wait for the rest of us to test it then you'll buy one. I'll be getting one of the first ones from Canada Ammo as I've been on the list since 2010 and once I run a bunch of ammo through it with all of my 30+ different mags I'll chime in on one of the threads that will pop up. Don't be so pessimistic. Let's give it a chance before we condemn it. Your starting to sound like TDC ;)
Sorry to hear about your luck with the L85.
 
cr5 said:
You need an AR-15 or two :D
Just because most Norinco stuff is a copy of something doesn't mean everything they make is.
You just wait for the rest of us to test it then you'll buy one. I'll be getting one of the first ones from Canada Ammo as I've been on the list since 2010 and once I run a bunch of ammo through it with all of my 30+ different mags I'll chime in on one of the threads that will pop up. Don't be so pessimistic. Let's give it a chance before we condemn it. Your starting to sound like TDC ;)
Sorry to hear about your luck with the L85.
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The l85 is just fact dude, it will go down in history as the one rifle that even hk couldnt get to run right. And yes I do like my ars. I also like my vz quite a bit :)

I'm not unreasonable, keep me posted on the type 97, if it turns out to be a quality rifle I will get one myself, I am not being a pessimist, I'm being cautious. The tavor, simply didnt impress me, for all the hype that surrounded it, it was just meh, I'm sure the thing runs, but the price coupled with that trigger kind of killed it for me.

I have been getting the bullpup itch since I handled the aug way back when, even more so since I recently shot one. In fact the guys gave me #### for ###ually molesting it... i mean eating cheesecake while trying to take an aug to bed.... I mean oh screw it I admit it I love the aug.

And please dont try to defend the f2k.

And me and tdc do think alike under many circumstances.
 
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I need to get my hands on a Tavor. All reports are positive but some people just can't get comfy with it.
I have zero exposure to the F2k so will say nothing.

Love my RFB and DTA SRS though and will never part with those one's.
Anyway, I still think that of all the NR black rifles I've played with my Swiss is the best built and is as accurate as any others. My 223 AR will out shoot it slightly and I'm still doing load development for my 300BLK AR so I'm not sure about that one yet.
 
cr5 said:
I need to get my hands on a Tavor. All reports are positive but some people just can't get comfy with it.
I have zero exposure to the F2k so will say nothing.

Love my RFB and DTA SRS though and will never part with those one's.
Anyway, I still think that of all the NR black rifles I've played with my Swiss is the best built and is as accurate as any others. My 223 AR will out shoot it slightly and I'm still doing load development for my 300BLK AR so I'm not sure about that one yet.
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I will toss this out though, I have never shot a f2k yet. but come on clearing some malfunctions on that rifle would be a total biatch. The tavor is ok, again I have very little trigger time on one, if you have fired a stock smith m&p pistol trigger, it will feel similar. very mushy and no feel, or at least the one I played with for a few mags did. Never tried the RFB, so can't comment, I would like to shoot the dta someday. For me the swiss is a tad bit too expensive for me to support at the moment, maybe that will change in the future. Plus how do you mount lights or nv on a swiss? I didn't find provisions for mounting pic rails on the front, maybe I was looking at the wrong place. And what do you mean your 223 ar will outshoot it?
 
Swissarms hands down. I have nothing bad to say about Robinson XCR and really like the Tavor but SA is in a league of its own. And for the guy who thinks it is ugly, ??? Not sure how you came to that conclusion.
 


The top one is my SU-16 and it is a whole bunch of fun to shoot! Only have 230 rounds through it, but not one issue other than one bad LAR mag. And with 15 rounds in the 10 round 50 Beowolf mag it is even more fun! The Sub 2000 is a lot of fun too for a pistol carbine. Next purchases will be the Swiss arms and XCR though; they look like great guns. Love my first two though and got the bug! Gonna need a bigger safe!
 
Thanks! They were totally stock when purchased, but that was too boring! Thanks to CGN'ers and their pics and google and a credit card they look different now. Still very inexpensive black rifles that are really reliable. Been a hoot to build and shoot these ones.
 
ztunelover said:
yes because the chinese never copy anything right?

I would like to see the "reliability" of this to be demonstrated before i buy into it. Which wars has this magic rifle seen? Can't think of any can you?
Just because it is claimed to be in current service doesnt mean it is any good. Because the fammas really isnt that great, hence why the french are looking at ditching them. And honestly i find the tavor to be overrated, the israelis could have done better. The only bullpup i really ever liked was the aug. And that is prohib so out of the equation.

And yes the l85 is an updated variant of the sa80 and is one raging pile of ####.

And lets not talk about the black & decker f2.... I mean fn f2000
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uh oh, tdc has a new account!!!!
 
ztunelover said:
I will toss this out though, I have never shot a f2k yet. but come on clearing some malfunctions on that rifle would be a total biatch. The tavor is ok, again I have very little trigger time on one, if you have fired a stock smith m&p pistol trigger, it will feel similar. very mushy and no feel, or at least the one I played with for a few mags did. Never tried the RFB, so can't comment, I would like to shoot the dta someday. For me the swiss is a tad bit too expensive for me to support at the moment, maybe that will change in the future. Plus how do you mount lights or nv on a swiss? I didn't find provisions for mounting pic rails on the front, maybe I was looking at the wrong place. And what do you mean your 223 ar will outshoot it?
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Why do you need somewhere for nightvision and lights and other mall ninja garbage? If you must have it then there are quadrails available but they cost around $600 and are not free floated.

I mean I have 2 AR's, one is 223 and the other is 300BLK. Both AR's are piston operated so they are fair to compare to the Swiss for accuracy. My 223 AR has a 12.5 inch barrel and will shoot better groups at 100yds than my Swiss arms. With my 300 Blackout AR that has a 9.75 inch barrel the best I've gotten so far is 1.5 inch at 100yds with my reloads. Both AR's have button rifled barrels and are a higher end brand so they may perform better than the average AR.
My 223 AR has a 1:8 twist and my Swiss has a 1:7 so shooting 55gr FMJ the AR should have a slight advantage but I suspect that once I start playing around with heavier bullets the Swiss may start making tighter groups. So far the best groups I've gotten with the Swiss are around 2-3 inches at 100yds but I have had a couple groups that started out with 3 almost touching and then the last 2 wandering off.
I'll be out at the range again Wednesday and/or Thursday and/or Friday to do some more playing with them and hope to find a bullet the Swiss likes. I'm also planning to start reloading for the Swiss soon and will be building a varmint/accuracy load for it for field use and will continue playing with 55gr FMJ when at the range and when I want to shoot volume.

I think the Swiss Arms is worth the money and since I have owned 5 different AR's and I've owned other non restricted black rifles such as the AR180B and the HK SL8-4 and shot a few XCR's I can honestly say that the only one that comes close in build quality is the HK but I had issues with mine (an early version) and got rid of it after I got it back from repairs the second time. I do miss my AR180B though and luckily I sold it to a buddy of mine and will one day buy it back. The 180 wasn't a better rifle in any way but it was light, simple and reliable. The groups weren't great but they were plenty good enough for a battle rifle and the only reason I sold it was that my buddy caught me in a moment of weakness when something shiny had caught my eye and I was a little short on cash for it.


WOOHOO! 1000 posts, now I know what I'm talking about ;)
 
cr5 said:
Why do you need somewhere for nightvision and lights and other mall ninja garbage? If you must have it then there are quadrails available but they cost around $600 and are not free floated.

I mean I have 2 AR's, one is 223 and the other is 300BLK. Both AR's are piston operated so they are fair to compare to the Swiss for accuracy. My 223 AR has a 12.5 inch barrel and will shoot better groups at 100yds than my Swiss arms. With my 300 Blackout AR that has a 9.75 inch barrel the best I've gotten so far is 1.5 inch at 100yds with my reloads. Both AR's have button rifled barrels and are a higher end brand so they may perform better than the average AR.
My 223 AR has a 1:8 twist and my Swiss has a 1:7 so shooting 55gr FMJ the AR should have a slight advantage but I suspect that once I start playing around with heavier bullets the Swiss may start making tighter groups. So far the best groups I've gotten with the Swiss are around 2-3 inches at 100yds but I have had a couple groups that started out with 3 almost touching and then the last 2 wandering off.
I'll be out at the range again Wednesday and/or Thursday and/or Friday to do some more playing with them and hope to find a bullet the Swiss likes. I'm also planning to start reloading for the Swiss soon and will be building a varmint/accuracy load for it for field use and will continue playing with 55gr FMJ when at the range and when I want to shoot volume.

I think the Swiss Arms is worth the money and since I have owned 5 different AR's and I've owned other non restricted black rifles such as the AR180B and the HK SL8-4 and shot a few XCR's I can honestly say that the only one that comes close in build quality is the HK but I had issues with mine (an early version) and got rid of it after I got it back from repairs the second time. I do miss my AR180B though and luckily I sold it to a buddy of mine and will one day buy it back. The 180 wasn't a better rifle in any way but it was light, simple and reliable. The groups weren't great but they were plenty good enough for a battle rifle and the only reason I sold it was that my buddy caught me in a moment of weakness when something shiny had caught my eye and I was a little short on cash for it.


WOOHOO! 1000 posts, now I know what I'm talking about ;)
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NV not for me, for mil applications(This is a military style rifle and the mil uses a whole lot of magic gear on their guns.). Lights, are a must for all my rifles, and when I do get a handgun for it as well. In a defensive situation if somebody does bust into my house I want to make sure it is some scumbag that I am lighting up and not my own family running to me in panic. I may consider a swiss in the future, for now I am simply trying to become a better shot with the vz and ar.
 
ztunelover said:
NV not for me, for mil applications(This is a military style rifle and the mil uses a whole lot of magic gear on their guns.). Lights, are a must for all my rifles, and when I do get a handgun for it as well. In a defensive situation if somebody does bust into my house I want to make sure it is some scumbag that I am lighting up and not my own family running to me in panic. I may consider a swiss in the future, for now I am simply trying to become a better shot with the vz and ar.
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I think you would want a rifle with a little shorter barrel for home defense ;)
There are accessory rails you can buy for the forends of the carbines, there are always options, could use a helmet mounted NV unit and just look through one of the NV friendly red dots out there.


If anyone in the Edmonton area is on the fence and needs a push to make the decision to buy a Swiss, AR, Sub2000 or RFB shoot me a PM and if we can line up schedules (I only shoot on weekdays so I can avoid the mall ninjas on the weekends) I'll take you as a guest to my range or join you at yours and let you try mine.
Cost will be a couple boxes of 223 and I get to keep the brass. Chances are pretty good I'll bring an AR along as well which you can try. EVERYONE NEEDS AN AR!

Note: If you don't have your PAL don't bother me because your obviously not serious and I don't feel like teaching firearms safety and rifle function when I could be shooting.
I can probably line up a buddy with an XCR to join us as well.
This offer is for people who are seriously considering purchasing a black rifle and just need a little exposure to one to make the decision, I'm not just going to take anyone out that wants to shoot unless your bringing some interesting firearms for me to play with as well.
 
ztunelover said:
NV not for me, for mil applications(This is a military style rifle and the mil uses a whole lot of magic gear on their guns.). Lights, are a must for all my rifles, and when I do get a handgun for it as well. In a defensive situation if somebody does bust into my house I want to make sure it is some scumbag that I am lighting up and not my own family running to me in panic. I may consider a swiss in the future, for now I am simply trying to become a better shot with the vz and ar.
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Using a rifle in a house for home defence would be foolish in the least. Dry wall and 5.56mm means dead family members and nieghbours.
 
Dsiwy said:
Using a rifle in a house for home defence would be foolish in the least. Dry wall and 5.56mm means dead family members and nieghbours.
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Is that right? Fast light projecticle that fragments at the first sign of anything other than air will have overpenetration issues? Are you sure about that assesment?
 
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