Help with OCW loading

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So I gave my hand at trying an OCW test and did 5 groups today. It was nice, I had the high power range all to myself. Rifle is a Stevens 200 in 223 with Falcon Menace 4-14x scope. Action is skim bedded barrel is barrel is fully floated, shooting off bags front and rear.

Stevens200.jpg


Loads were neck sized Remington brass with Winchester Small Rifle primers, 75 grain AMAXs and IMR4895.

Here is an animated gif I made up to track the wandering POI. All targets where shot round robin.

#1 is 22.5,#2 is 22.9, #3 is 23.2#4 is 23.6 and #5 is 23.8 grains (IMR's recommended Max).

All-5-07Jun13-redo.gif


I was planning on doing the next round all something like 23.0, 23.2, 23.4, 23.6, 23.8.

One BIG question. Why are my groups always about twice as wide as they are tall? Almost dead calm BTW.

Any other tips or ideas?
 
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A great day for shooting! 5 more targets with the 75 AMAX running 22.8, 23.0, 23.2, 23.4 and 23.6 grains of IMR 4895. I cleaned the bore, snugged the hell out of the action bolts and was a lot more focused on grip.

Still don't know what this testing is telling me, but there are certainly some good groups in there for a Stevens IMO. I'm gonna need to order more AMAXs and some scope rings from Mystic soon. If I can get this thing shooting sub 0.75 MOA @ 100 then I don't know what I'll do. I was planning on sticking a Shilen on it and just wanted to see what the stock tube would do.

Any input would be appreciated. Is there a pattern or am I asking too much from a stock barrel?

09Jun13All5.gif
 
simpleton said:
How are you even getting a decent cheek weld with that scope mounted up in the nose bleed section?
Click to expand...

Believe it or not, not everyone puts their cheek on their stock to shoot it.

While my scopes are mounted as close to the barrel as possible, I do not touch the stock with any part of my head.
 
You might want to try a different bullet. If you must shoot 70 + gr try Hornady 75gr HPBT Match. With a 1 in 9 twist barrel you might want to stick with Sierra 69gr Match Kings. IF A-Max's are going to shoot from that barrel the conditions are going to have to be about perfect...and where your location is listed it's not going to be very often. I'd go so far as to say you'll never get good results from a 75 A-Max unless you got an odd barrel or it's a very hot and humid day.

Your asking too much from a bullet you don't have enough twist to stabilize.
 
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I've never been able to get the Hornady 75s (Amax or BTHP) to shoot out of my 1:9 Savage. The Sierra 77 Matchkings have been great! The 69 Matchkings are a close 2nd.
 
Thanks for the tips guys. I'm going to finish off the 75 AMAXs with a couple of 5 or more shot groups around 23.3 grains and see if I can get it to behave. I'll have to order some Sierras and see what happens.
 
Not that it really matters, but your scope doesn't look level. Maybe not tight?

Can't explain why your horizontal is coming into play. I know I shot two 6 shot groups last Saturday. 20 off lands was mostly vertical spread, mag length was mostly horizontal spread.

Witchcraft...
 
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Shibby! said:
Not that it really matters, but your scope doesn't look level. Maybe not tight?

Can't explain why your horizontal is coming into play. I know I shot two 6 shot groups last Saturday. 20 off lands was mostly vertical spread, mag length was mostly horizontal spread.

Witchcraft...
Click to expand...

It sure does look that way in the picture. One thing that doesn't help is that the scope caps are certainly not on straight. I laid a 12" straight edge on the top turret and one across the EGW rail and they seemed to indicate that it was very close to level. I should buy a small little level for that for next time. I also reefed on the turrets as hard as I really wanted and there was no slip. All seems good there.

Also, with regard to the horizontal groupings, hopefully that was a lose rear action screw that I snugged up before shooting the second round of targets.
 
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Why not try a lighter Bullet? I've have good luck with 52gr a-max. Unless you're planning on going the distance and need the 75gr to reach out there =D
 
Some stuff that worked for me on my Savage.

Loosen all action bolts. Re-tighten using a torque wrench to 45 INCH lbs. Also try doing this while shooting groups and you can see very significant changes in POI, so you may want to take the tools to the range. Too tight is as bad as too loose.

No Offence, but get a better scope. I think you may have tracking issues. Have you box tested the scope? Does it track and hold it's adjustments? Is it level. If it holds then keep it, otherwise invest in at least a Bushnell Elite 3200 10X, or go up from there if budget allows. Choose a reputable brand and spend what you can afford and then some.

Invest in or borrow a scope levelling kit. About $35 at Bass Pro or whatever retailer. Level the rifle, level the scope, and tighten accordingly. Are you using a rear bag? I didn't look closely at photo.

Try 77 gr Sierra Match Kings. They have a different profile and ogive than the 75 AMAX, and they shoot great out of Savage barrels with 1:9 twist, where the AMAX's don't group well. My recipe was 24.2 gr of Varget and Federal match primers. Brass was old range brass full length resized, trimmed, and primer pockets uniformed.

The rest is mechanics. Position, consistency, cheek weld, trigger press, breath, follow through (not in any particular order)... YMMV good luck, I'm off to work.
 
What type of scale?

What type of dies?

What is the trigger pull weight?

Is the rifle rolling under recoil?

Fully bed that recoil lug and support that action. If it moves, you will not get consistent accuracy

Do you trust the scope?

I have a Stevens that will shoot wonderfully tight groups until the barrel heats up then it walks to a much larger pattern. Keep that barrel cool or at least monitor how it changes as it heats up.

Shooting small groups is a multi step process. And you need a barrel that will let you do that.

Some factory barrels will. Others will not.

Jerry
 
It doesn't matter if your scope is level or not.

Having those groups shift all over the place is a big red flag. Until that is fixed (maybe by tightening your action screws), nothing is going to work reliably.

If you're not going to be shooting beyond 600m, the Sierra 77 would be a very good choice. It's not a terribly high performance bullet, but it is very tolerant and very forgiving (it's designed to shoot well when loaded to magazine length).

Your scope is mounted unusually high, but if you are comfortable shooting it there's nothing wrong with that.

Do you know how to adjust your parallax to zero? (if not, that can open up the groups that you shoot).

Your rifle setup looks solid and assuming you were also using a good steady rear bag, you ought to be able to aim and shoot your rifle well enough to get groups much smaller than 1 MOA.
 
JR86 said:
Why not try a lighter Bullet? I've have good luck with 52gr a-max. Unless you're planning on going the distance and need the 75gr to reach out there =D
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I would, but I figured if I was going to work up an accurate load, I might as well try one with as high a BC as I could. I should work up a plinking load also.

peacefrog said:
Some stuff that worked for me on my Savage.
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Thanks for all the advice peacefrog. I'll see about torquing the action bolts and as soon as I can get a load to behave, I'll confirm the scopes tracking. I bought the falcon used because I was reading reviews that said it was actually a good scope for the money. Is there any scope that is sub $500, has turrets, is around 6-18x, has decent glass and a a good reputation for tracking?

I have new lower rings on the way. I was playing with my rifle and I though a better check weld would certainly help. Hopefully get them on before the weekend and try a few 5 shot groups. If I can still be sub 3/4 MOA then I'd say that's good for a fairly stock Stevens propped up on sandbags front and rear. If not, maybe I'll spring for a Timney trigger and see how that stock barrel can run with some care.

Mystic Precision said:
What type of scale? Lyman Pro 5000. Charges trickled with love.

What type of dies? Lee neck size and seating dies.

What is the trigger pull weight? 4lbs+, stock, it does take a lot of attention.

Is the rifle rolling under recoil? Probably.

Fully bed that recoil lug and support that action. If it moves, you will not get consistent accuracy. It was skim bedded by the previous owner.

Do you trust the scope? No reason not to yet.

I have a Stevens that will shoot wonderfully tight groups until the barrel heats up then it walks to a much larger pattern. Keep that barrel cool or at least monitor how it changes as it heats up.

Shooting small groups is a multi step process. And you need a barrel that will let you do that.

Some factory barrels will. Others will not.

Jerry
Click to expand...

I'm just wondering at what point do I quit or upgrade. I thought that the 0.641" and the 0.741" groups where promising for the gun and scope combo.
 
rnbra-shooter said:
It doesn't matter if your scope is level or not. I didn't think it did for load development at one fixed distance.

Having those groups shift all over the place is a big red flag. Until that is fixed (maybe by tightening your action screws), nothing is going to work reliably. See, this is what I don't understand. I thought the groups where supposed to move while doing Optimum Charge Weight testing. So I wasn't too worried. I think I have two shots at getting a sub 3/4 MOA group

If you're not going to be shooting beyond 600m, the Sierra 77 would be a very good choice. It's not a terribly high performance bullet, but it is very tolerant and very forgiving (it's designed to shoot well when loaded to magazine length). I have 69 and 77 SMKs and Hornady 68 and 75 BTHP Match bullets on order.

Your scope is mounted unusually high, but if you are comfortable shooting it there's nothing wrong with that. Medium Leupolds on the way. :)

Do you know how to adjust your parallax to zero? (if not, that can open up the groups that you shoot). Um no I guess not. I try to keep the fuzzy black outline around the image even all the way around before I shoot.

Your rifle setup looks solid and assuming you were also using a good steady rear bag, you ought to be able to aim and shoot your rifle well enough to get groups much smaller than 1 MOA. Somewhere, hidden in my house, is a Caldwell front rest and rear bag I can't for the life of me find. :(
Click to expand...

Tim
 
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