The ammo Shortage of 2013, We have seen the enemy and it is us

You would think that eventually after enough panic buying that everyone would have enough ammo. Ammo properly stored can last a lifetime (or a few lifetimes). Don't people have stashes built up already?
 
this is very true, do the math, 50-80 million new buyers (or whatever the number is) buying 200 rounds of ammo, the shortage will subside, but man its going to take a while.

Where on God's green earth do you pull these numbers from (please don't tell me your arse)?

There are only about 200 million adults in the country, and there are no way there are 25-40% of them who just bought a firearm for the first time. And those percentages go through the roof when you take away all those who are prohibited from buying through mental or criminal reasons.

In all of last year there were less than 20 million background checks run. Are you trying to say that the new buyers are the only ones buying, and another 30-60 million did it privately?

If there were 5-8 million first time buyers it would be an unprecedented number (and consume all of the 5.5 million guns manufactured in the US last year). 50-80 million? There was not even that much inventory for sale. Impossible!

Which leads me to ask: with only a estimated 300 million firearms in existence in the whole country, where the hell did these first time buyers find these 50-80 million guns to buy (assuming they only bought one each, and not several)?

Pulling numbers out of your arse, spreading them on the internet with theories attached fear-mongering others to "do the math" is what is fuelling this panic.

How about you "do the math", and enough of this crap.
 
The price of ammo will continue to rise, so stocking up will save money in the long run. The reason people are buying a life time supply of ammo is that once they start tracking the purchase of ammo people would rather not have to go out and buy it. I have a 5mm that I used to shoot for $2.00 for 50 rounds,now when I can find it, it is $30.00 for 50 rounds. I wish I would have bought 10's of thousands of rounds in the 80's and i wouldn't have to think about shooting my 5mm. If the import of surplus ammo is shut down where will you buy your cheap ammo?

Buying ammo when it is cheap is good financial sense.
Buying it when it is hugely overpriced because "I might never be able to get .22LR ever again" is forking stupid.
 
Where on God's green earth do you pull these numbers from (please don't tell me your arse)?

There are only about 200 million adults in the country, and there are no way there are 25-40% of them who just bought a firearm for the first time. And those percentages go through the roof when you take away all those who are prohibited from buying through mental or criminal reasons.

In all of last year there were less than 20 million background checks run. Are you trying to say that the new buyers are the only ones buying, and another 30-60 million did it privately?

If there were 5-8 million first time buyers it would be an unprecedented number (and consume all of the 5.5 million guns manufactured in the US last year). 50-80 million? There was not even that much inventory for sale. Impossible!

Which leads me to ask: with only a estimated 300 million firearms in existence in the whole country, where the hell did these first time buyers find these 50-80 million guns to buy (assuming they only bought one each, and not several)?

Pulling numbers out of your arse, spreading them on the internet with theories attached fear-mongering others to "do the math" is what is fuelling this panic.

How about you "do the math", and enough of this crap.

Are you really that Naive??? ask ANY gun retailer in the U.S. how many of gun buyers are first time buyers. The numbers are staggering. I can name you 14 people who all have over 10 friends who have asked about what to buy as they have never bought before. Why do you think the shortage is so acute? because there are only 100K new buyers???? We are talking about the U.S. not canada, and yes there are millions upon millions of new buyers or old buyers who have awakened to this mania. You don't have to believe it, I don't care, but you don't have to believe the earth is round either. Your belief has no affect on what's happening.

by your own numbers there were close to 20Mil background checks, that's a big number, that does NOT account for all the private sales, which DO NOT require back ground checks, sales at gun shows, etc. Those numbers are huge, and to think they do not double that 20M number is to not understand the U.S. market.
 
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This is what I'm worried about, things a just going to start to get back to normal and there will be another massacre and it starts all over again.
Unfortunately, it's not a matter of "if", but "when".

MassShootings.jpg
 
You would think that eventually after enough panic buying that everyone would have enough ammo. Ammo properly stored can last a lifetime (or a few lifetimes). Don't people have stashes built up already?
At 100 millions gun owner, assuming a lifetime of 22LR would be around 100k, assuming a full-production of 1 billion rounds per week, that would still take 192 years to produce ((10^8 * 10^5 / 10^9)/52)... Moreover, it would take 3 full year to extract all the lead needed by the 10^13 projectile, at 8 millions tons a year, assuming 40 grains projectile.

Maybe it's time to massively switch to .17HMR :)
 
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Are you really that Naive??? ask ANY gun retailer in the U.S. how many of gun buyers are first time buyers. The numbers are staggering. I can name you 14 people who all have over 10 friends who have asked about what to buy as they have never bought before. Why do you think the shortage is so acute? because there are only 100K new buyers???? We are talking about the U.S. not canada, and yes there are millions upon millions of new buyers or old buyers who have awakened to this mania. You don't have to believe it, I don't care, but you don't have to believe the earth is round either. Your belief has no affect on what's happening.

Are you really this obtuse?

Give your head a shake.

The numbers are staggering, but in the 5-8 million staggering (which is what I said so I have no idea where you got "100k" from).

50-80 million first time buyers is IMPOSSIBLE.

There were not even that many firearms available for sale for a buyer to become a owner for the first time. There are only 300 million firearms in the entire country. Since most people who already had one was not selling it to a first timer during a crisis, where did these 50-80 (minimum as some first timers bought multiple firearms) come from?

And there are not even that many people eligible to be first time buyers.

There are only 200 million adults of the age to buy a firearm in the US.

There are an estimated 40% of them who were already guns owners.

That leaves 120 million who were not. Many of them have criminal records or mental issues that prohibit them from buying a firearm, and many are anti's who will never ever buy a firearm in the first place.

Are you really trying to say that 33-66% of this group went out and bought a gun FOR THE FIRST TIME?

Further, there were only 20 million background checks done last year. That is for all guns bought at a dealer. Even if every single one was a first time buyer (improbable), are you saying in a hoarding crisis that the other 30-60 million new buyers bought privately from existing owners (those profiteering from the crisis aside, who sells all their guns in a crisis)?

The US firearm's manufacturing community only makes just over 5 million firearms a year, so where did this massive inventory come from to equip these 50-80 million first time buyers?

Take your own advice and "do the math".

Your numbers are total BS and like every other thread you come into it pulling numbers out of your arse you are only trying to fear monger people into buying into some fabricated crisis.
 
critter, and why do you think there is a shortage then if there are so few new buyers? common sense has left the place. re-read my original post, on the numbers ....whatever the real number is.... who cares, what it is exactly, its larger than before ....period
 
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critter, and why do you think there is a shortage then if there are so few new buyers? common sense has left the place.

I don't believe you ever had common sense to begin with.

5-8 million would be a huge increase. On the magnitude of a 10% or more, which combined with the existing owners hoarding, would give a massive shortage in short term supply.

50-80 million would be a near doubling of the number of gun owners in a year.

That is impossible for the reasons I pointed out above.

So yes, there may be many more new buyers, but that number is not anywhere near what you threw out there, and thus does not have anywhere near the effect long term you are alluding to.

50-80 million was pulled out of your arse to give credence to your fear mongering view, admit it.
 
And even with the recent surge of new buyers, gun ownership is still in decline, and there is no way it just doubled magically in the last year (which 50-80 million new buyers would be). It would also mean there are more gun owners than anytime recorded history in the US.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us/rate-of-gun-ownership-is-down-survey-shows.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Share of Homes With Guns Shows 4-Decade Decline

The share of American households with guns has declined over the past four decades, a national survey shows, with some of the most surprising drops in the South and the Western mountain states, where guns are deeply embedded in the culture.

The gun ownership rate has fallen across a broad cross section of households since the early 1970s, according to data from the General Social Survey, a public opinion survey conducted every two years that asks a sample of American adults if they have guns at home, among other questions.

The rate has dropped in cities large and small, in suburbs and rural areas and in all regions of the country. It has fallen among households with children, and among those without. It has declined for households that say they are very happy, and for those that say they are not. It is down among churchgoers and those who never sit in pews.

The household gun ownership rate has fallen from an average of 50 percent in the 1970s to 49 percent in the 1980s, 43 percent in the 1990s and 35 percent in the 2000s, according to the survey data, analyzed by The New York Times.

In 2012, the share of American households with guns was 34 percent, according to survey results released on Thursday. Researchers said the difference compared with 2010, when the rate was 32 percent, was not statistically significant.

The findings contrast with the impression left by a flurry of news reports about people rushing to buy guns and clearing shop shelves of assault rifles after the massacre last year at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn.

“There are all these claims that gun ownership is going through the roof,” said Daniel Webster, the director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research. “But I suspect the increase in gun sales has been limited mostly to current gun owners. The most reputable surveys show a decline over time in the share of households with guns.”

That decline, which has been studied by researchers for years but is relatively unknown among the general public, suggests that even as the conversation on guns remains contentious, a broad shift away from gun ownership is under way in a growing number of American homes. It also raises questions about the future politics of gun control. Will efforts to regulate guns eventually meet with less resistance if they are increasingly concentrated in fewer hands — or more resistance?

Detailed data on gun ownership is scarce. Though some states reported household gun ownership rates in the 1990s, it was not until the early 2000s that questions on the presence of guns at home were asked on a broad federal public health survey of several hundred thousand people, making it possible to see the rates in all states.

But by the mid-2000s, the federal government stopped asking the questions, leaving researchers to rely on much smaller surveys, like the General Social Survey, which is conducted by NORC, a research center at the University of Chicago.

Measuring the level of gun ownership can be a vexing problem, with various recent national polls reporting rates between 35 percent and 52 percent. Responses can vary because the survey designs and the wording of questions differ.

But researchers say the survey done by the center at the University of Chicago is crucial because it has consistently tracked gun ownership since 1973, asking if respondents “happen to have in your home (or garage) any guns or revolvers.”

The center’s 2012 survey, conducted mostly in person but also by phone, involved interviews with about 2,000 people from March to September and had a margin of sampling error of plus or minus three percentage points.

Gallup, which asks a similar question but has a different survey design, shows a higher ownership rate and a more moderate decrease. No national survey tracks the number of guns within households.

Andrew Arulanandam, a spokesman for the National Rifle Association, said he was skeptical that there had been a decline in household ownership. He pointed to reports of increased gun sales, to long waits for gun safety training classes and to the growing number of background checks, which have surged since the late 1990s, as evidence that ownership is rising.

“I’m sure there are a lot of people who would love to make the case that there are fewer gun owners in this country, but the stories we’ve been hearing and the data we’ve been seeing simply don’t support that,” he said.

Tom W. Smith, the director of the General Social Survey, which is financed by the National Science Foundation, said he was confident in the trend. It lines up, he said, with two evolving patterns in American life: the decline of hunting and a sharp drop in violent crime, which has made the argument for self-protection much less urgent.

According to an analysis of the survey, only a quarter of men in 2012 said they hunted, compared with about 40 percent when the question was asked in 1977.

Mr. Smith acknowledged the rise in background checks, but said it was impossible to tell how many were for new gun owners. The checks are reported as one total that includes, for example, people buying their second or third gun, as well as those renewing concealed carry permits.

“If there was a national registry that recorded all firearm purchases, we’d have a full picture,” he said. “But there’s not, so we’ve got to put together pieces.”

The survey does not ask about the legality of guns in the home. Illegal guns are a factor in some areas but represent a very small fraction of ownership in the country, said Aaron Karp, an expert on gun policy at the Small Arms Survey in Geneva and at Old Dominion University in Norfolk, Va. He said estimates of the total number of guns in the United States ranged from 280 million to 320 million.

The geographic patterns were some of the most surprising in the General Social Survey, researchers said. Gun ownership in both the South and the mountain region, which includes states like Montana, New Mexico and Wyoming, dropped to less than 40 percent of households this decade, down from 65 percent in the 1970s. The Northeast, where the household ownership rate is lowest, changed the least, at 22 percent this decade, compared with 29 percent in the 1970s.

Age groups presented another twist. While household ownership of guns among elderly Americans remained virtually unchanged from the 1970s to this decade at about 43 percent, ownership among young Americans plummeted. Household gun ownership among Americans under the age of 30 fell to 23 percent this decade from 47 percent in the 1970s. The survey showed a similar decline for Americans ages 30 to 44.

As for politics, the survey showed a steep drop in household gun ownership among Democrats and independents, and a very slight decline among Republicans. But the new data suggest a reversal among Republicans, with 51 percent since 2008 saying they have a gun in their home, up from 47 percent in surveys taken from 2000 through 2006. This leaves the Republican rate a bit below where it was in the 1970s, while ownership for Democrats is nearly half of what it was in that decade.

Researchers offered different theories for these trends.

Many Americans were introduced to guns through military service, which involved a large part of the population in the Vietnam War era, Dr. Webster said. Now that the Army is volunteer and a small fraction of the population, it is less a gateway for gun ownership, he said.

Urbanization also helped drive the decline. Rural areas, where gun ownership is the highest, are now home to about 17 percent of Americans, down from 27 percent in the 1970s. According to the survey, just 23 percent of households in cities owned guns in the 2000s, compared with 56 percent of households in rural areas. That was down from 70 percent of rural households in the 1970s.

The country’s changing demographics may also play a role. While the rate of gun ownership among women has remained relatively constant over the years at about 10 percent, which is less than one-third of the rate among men today, more women are heading households without men, another possible contributor to the decline in household gun ownership. Women living in households where there were guns that were not their own declined to a fifth in 2012 down from a third in 1980.

The increase of Hispanics as a share of the American population is also probably having an effect, as they are far less likely to own guns. In the survey results since 2000, about 14 percent of Hispanics reported having a gun in their house.
 
critter your article helps to make sense in the surge in demand. Gun owners had fallen off a lot, but the recent political environment has caused a lot of previous owners to become owners again, along with many of their friends and family, which is why the demand is so hot. the demand is waaaaay up, all I am saying its up for many reasons other than just normal gun owners hoarding, which has also contributed to demand. done with this conversation as we are coming from much to different of perspective, global vs regional
 
Do not know the numbers but being from the states with many friends there, 25% of my circle of friends have purchased and are first time buyers. That ratio is high considering I am from the southern us where
you got a 22 long before you get BB gun.

The shortage for some calibers and gauges are due to the "rumor" that DHS is buying it all up.
Yes there are contracts for up to millions of rounds etc but no one can say for sure how much had actually been purchased and delivered when
the super media coverage exploded, since then we have learned the number is about 900 rounds per officer for the year including training days etc.

This drove people to panic and start stocking up for themselves.

A quote from something I read a couple days ago:

MYTH: Then why can’t I find ammo? What’s causing the shortage?
FACT: We’re causing the shortage. As an employee for a major firearms retailer, I can testify we receive shipments of the three highest demand calibers (9mm, .22 LR, and .223 Rem/5.56 NATO) at least 3-5 times weekly and in quantities far exceeding our normal shipments. We see as many as 1,000 boxes of ammunition disappear in as little as four hours.
People are responding to the unknown with fear and hoarding of ammunition. Manufacturers are replenishing the shelves, but the civilian market is buying it too fast due to warranted (and unwarranted) concerns. Don’t believe me? Ask your dealers, or wait at a local Wal-Mart.
 
I went to a US walfart last week. Had to snap a pic of the ammo cabinets, because it was comical. 16 feet of 6 foot high cabinet, ONE box of 30-06, a handful of 270 and 243, and a few random shotgun rounds. Could all fit in a decent day pack.
on this side, I checked Canada Ammo the other night. No 9mm No 223 No 12g(some reduced recoil #### only) I didnt look any further than that. Locally Same situation. A scattering every few months when wallyworld and CT restock, then back to the drought. bullets and powder are getting thin too.
Why can be explained several ways, but shortages are a fact, not a rumour or theory.
 
I went to a US walfart last week. Had to snap a pic of the ammo cabinets, because it was comical. 16 feet of 6 foot high cabinet, ONE box of 30-06, a handful of 270 and 243, and a few random shotgun rounds. Could all fit in a decent day pack.
on this side, I checked Canada Ammo the other night. No 9mm No 223 No 12g(some reduced recoil #### only) I didnt look any further than that. Locally Same situation. A scattering every few months when wallyworld and CT restock, then back to the drought. bullets and powder are getting thin too.
Why can be explained several ways, but shortages are a fact, not a rumour or theory.

No shortage here at any retailers I have seen (some brands come and go, but it still comes in regularly even if someone comes and buys it as fast as they can), or at online sources like SFRC, and if you couldn't find 9mm at Canada Ammo, you never looked very hard;

https://www.canadaammo.com/product/detail/50-round-box-of-federal-american-eagle-9mm-147gr-fmj-ammo/

https://www.canadaammo.com/product/detail/1000-round-case-of-federal-american-eagle-9mm-luger-115gr-fmj

That being said, no one side there is not a shortage overall, which is the premise of the OP.

Why is clear too, and it is explained in the OP, and then parroted by some here (people like Dizzy) who repeat either rumour (like DHS buying all the ammunition), spread BS information (like what is on the shelf is it and there is no resupply coming because wholesalers can't get it), or just pull numbers out of their arse (like 50-80 million new gun owners in the US).

Fear mongering leading to hoarding is 99% the reason for the shortage we do see.

Manufacturers are pumping it out at levels never seen before, and consumers are buying it up just as fast.

Are range memberships through the roof? Austerer shooting ranges crowded? Hunting licences sold out?

No. That means people are not using it up, but hoarding it.

In that sense, there is actually no "shortage", it is just that it is not in warehouses and store shelves, but peoples basements.

If everyone would calm down, not hoard during a shortage, stop the fear mongering, BS spreading, or pulling numbers out of their arse, and just let the market level out we will all be better off in the long run.

But some people just want to see the world burn, and can't get enough of trying to explain why it is necessary to hoard, and right now!
 
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