Can the Hi-Power still hold its own against more "modern" combat/duty pistols?

The biggest shortcoming of the BHP as a service pistol is durability when used hard. Typical service life is only around 35,000 rounds. A less expensive pistol with at least double the service life is hard to argue against.

The FBI HRT replaced their BHPs with custom 1911s. Likewise, I believe that the SAS has been using SIG Sauer P226s for many years now.
 
One must remember that the HP was designed in the early 1930s and weapon design has come a long way since then. The HPs in service are coming to the end of their life cycle and need replacing. Certainly there are more economical and perhaps more functional pistols on the market today which would make more sense for re-equipping an army. However, that does not mean the HP is not capable of doing the job.
 
As an infantryman my personal weapon was a rifle and I wouldn't care to give up space on my webbing to a pistol and its separate ammunition. When I carried a Hi-Power in N.Ireland it was for personal protection when moving around in civilian clothes (not secret squirrel, just administrative moves, going to meetings, not looking for trouble.) I'd carry it in the roomy pocket of a big loose jacket. I wouldn't be worried about carrying it made ready with the safety on but orders were to carry made safe (full magazine, chamber empty) and I followed orders. I never felt that it wasn't a good enough pistol in case of any need for a pistol that might arise and I wouldn't feel any different if I were issued one in good serviceable condition today. I think if you are properly trained and in practise with a Hi-Power it isn't going to be the cause of you losing a shoot-out with someone who has a Glock or other modern competitors.

But if I were selecting a pistol to buy to arm a lot of soldiers or police, I would expect to conclude the best value for money was one of those modern competitors. Things move on, lessons are learned and progress is made. Those pistols should be able to do the job as well or better and be built and maintained for less cost. That's what engineers have been working on for decades.


I don't shoot handguns much and of them prefer my revolvers but I do own one semi-auto pistol - a Hi-Power to enjoy a bit of nostalgia and because it's one of the classics amongst guns. Almost all of the handgun shooting we do is a hobby - own what you like and enjoy it.
 
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The HP points like your finger - the Block points like a 2x4. After that is where it gets dicey. The Glock is simpler to train people who have never handled a gun before, i.e.: anyone in the UK. In big bureaucratic giants like armies and police forces, the bottom line is the almighty dollar, not what is necessarily better.
 
I've owned a BHP 9mm for ~ 25 years. Been shooting Glocks for ~ 20 years. Carried a Glock for duty use for ~ 15 years before I retired.

As much as I love my BHP, the Glock would still be my "go to". Simply put, Glocks work.

It's a much better choice for a combat pistol.

My .02

:canadaFlag:
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NAA.
 
Before I get taken the wrong way, I love the old P35HP.

I also like the Walther P38, Fin Lahti, Sig and M39/59 S&W.

I'm not a fan of plastic handguns. Nothing really wrong with them at all. Just a personal preference.

The Glock, is easier to maintain under harsh conditions, reliable, reasonably accurate and of course, cheap. Not only that, Glock is all tooled up and ready to deliver very quickly. Parts are readily available. Webbing is already designed etc. It wins hands down

Tooner wrote

As an infantryman my personal weapon was a rifle and I wouldn't care to give up space on my webbing to a pistol and its separate ammunition.


I can tell you from experience, in the field, especially on extended missions, that damned pistol was a pain in the proverbial butt.

Between the webbing, ammunition and the pistol itself, you gave up room and weight composing of a day of food and water rations.

Not only that, it got in the way at the worst time, especially if you tried hard to keep it handy. The only rational way to carry one, was in a decent shoulder holster and even then, the thing would feel like a set of bar bells tied to you.

For an officer or serviceman in a rear echelon area, or a mechanic in the field etc, a pistol is a viable alternative weapon.

For the infantryman, why on earth would you want to resort to the use of a substandard weapon in a firefight when you have a perfectly good rifle that will be 10 times as effective as any pistol.

The chances of a well maintained rifle malfunctioning are slim. It does happen though but I can remember the number of pistols being carried by the people I knew in the field was nil. The extra, food, water and ammo were much more desirable. A bigger knife would have been much more appreciated.

The Glock, is the logical choice IMHO. No matter how much respect I have for the P35.
 
The Browning 9mm has 60 years of combat experience in Commonwealth Forces, the Glock just wishes it had! The Browning is still relevant to a skilled shooter.
 
misanthropist said:
Most of the HRT units are using Glocks now, too, actually.
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Don't mistake the regional FBI SWAT entities for HRT...

FBI shift to the 1911 from the BHP was an ammo related issue trying to get out of 9mm... Interestingly enough folks have come around full circle on that debate again.


A good BHP will shoot a lot lot tighter than a Glock, however like the 1911, they are also not as reliable in field environments. Similarly once you deactivate the horrible mag safety you need to weld up the trigger bar on a BHP to bring the trigger rest range into a reasonable distance -- all of these modifications require skilled armorer support -- much in the same way custom 1911's do.

All else being equal a well build BHP will outlast a Glock -- most NATO BHP's where shot with 9mm +P 1Million SMG ammo designed for open bolt Sterling type guns -- these really beat on the BHP's -- try that with a Glock and tell me how long it lasts :cool:

However - the plastic fantastics are cheap and pretty much good to go out of the box.

Also Glock's, Sig's M&P's etc - any modern designed pistol can take a weapon light out of the box.

No one currently makes an adaptor rail or a holster for a BHP with weapon light.

I love 1911's and BHP's, but the sun is setting on them, just like the British Empire...
 
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Garand said:
The Browning 9mm has 60 years of combat experience in Commonwealth Forces, the Glock just wishes it had! The Browning is still relevant to a skilled shooter.
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not just the commonwealth - even the Germans used them after they occupied the FN factory! Note the Nazi era waffenampt above the trigger

hipower1.jpg
 
FWIW, the UK has, in the past, released war stocks of Hi-Power pistols, mostly Inglis ones, to the surplus market. I used to have one, painted in Suncorite and all. I doubt they would do it again though in the modern UN arms non-proliferation world.

I have a lot of friends who spent time outside the wire at KAF. The guys who trained a lot with the BHP will tell you that if you have reliable mags (a big "IF" in the CF during some rotos), the gun worked just fine.

Typical practise is to carry with empty chamber, safety off. Under combat condition, fine motor skills are not to be relied upon, so even if you carried in Condition 3, you might flub-up taking the safety off. The guys would typically run a single point sling and if you need to transition, you let the rifle fall to your side, draw the pistol and #### the slide with the weak hand in one fluid motion as you present the pistol forward to fire. It's actually VERY intuitive and easy to do with practise and is a more reliable way of bringing the BHP into action under stressful conditions than operating the safety lever.

People often equate range-use of their pistol of choice with what it would be like to use in combat. This is just laughable. When the lead is flying, you want VERY VERY reliable and you want operation that requires as little fine-motor control as possible. Also, if you go striker-fired, I suspect you would not issue troops the Glock 17 commercial trigger. Likely the military would issue the New-York trigger for the same reason the NYPD does. With the BHP, the gun is not loaded until you fully intent to put a hole in your enemy. With a Glock, for example, you need a lot more training to ensure carry safety with a chambered round.

I half expect if the UK stays with the Glock, the typical opord will stipulate carry on an empty chamber and they will load upon drawing, similar to the current BHP manual of arms.
 
Claven2 said:
FWIW, the UK has, in the past, released war stocks of Hi-Power pistols, mostly Inglis ones, to the surplus market. I used to have one, painted in Suncorite and all. I doubt they would do it again though in the modern UN arms non-proliferation world.

I have a lot of friends who spent time outside the wire at KAF. The guys who trained a lot with the BHP will tell you that if you have reliable mags (a big "IF" in the CF during some rotos), the gun worked just fine.

Typical practise is to carry with empty chamber, safety off. Under combat condition, fine motor skills are not to be relied upon, so even if you carried in Condition 3, you might flub-up taking the safety off. The guys would typically run a single point sling and if you need to transition, you let the rifle fall to your side, draw the pistol and #### the slide with the weak hand in one fluid motion as you present the pistol forward to fire. It's actually VERY intuitive and easy to do with practise and is a more reliable way of bringing the BHP into action under stressful conditions than operating the safety lever.

People often equate range-use of their pistol of choice with what it would be like to use in combat. This is just laughable. When the lead is flying, you want VERY VERY reliable and you want operation that requires as little fine-motor control as possible. Also, if you go striker-fired, I suspect you would not issue troops the Glock 17 commercial trigger. Likely the military would issue the New-York trigger for the same reason the NYPD does. With the BHP, the gun is not loaded until you fully intent to put a hole in your enemy. With a Glock, for example, you need a lot more training to ensure carry safety with a chambered round.

I half expect if the UK stays with the Glock, the typical opord will stipulate carry on an empty chamber and they will load upon drawing, similar to the current BHP manual of arms.
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I disagree with the NY trigger for mil. A negligent discharge by an Leo is a big deal. The same by a soldier during active operations isn't. Soldiers kill people on behalf of the gov. A negligent round fired resulting in injury or death is not a factor when choosing a service pistol. Both the bhp and 1911 have far lighter and shorter triggers than a stock glock and most AR"s have similar weighted triggers to a stock glock. All of which have and do see service.

The whole unloaded chamber mantra is the result of poor or non existent training.

Tdc
 
KevinB said:
Don't mistake the regional FBI SWAT entities for HRT...

FBI shift to the 1911 from the BHP was an ammo related issue trying to get out of 9mm... Interestingly enough folks have come around full circle on that debate again.
Click to expand...

I don't believe that I am...talking to Ken Hackathorn not long ago he mentioned that more than half of HRT was now on the Glock and that while there were still fanatical 1911 loyalists in HRT, it was not the universal choice of HRT anymore.
 
Claven2 said:
I have a lot of friends who spent time outside the wire at KAF. The guys who trained a lot with the BHP will tell you that if you have reliable mags (a big "IF" in the CF during some rotos), the gun worked just fine.
Typical practise is to carry with empty chamber, safety off. Under combat condition, fine motor skills are not to be relied upon, so even if you carried in Condition 3, you might flub-up taking the safety off. The guys would typically run a single point sling and if you need to transition, you let the rifle fall to your side, draw the pistol and #### the slide with the weak hand in one fluid motion as you present the pistol forward to fire. It's actually VERY intuitive and easy to do with practise and is a more reliable way of bringing the BHP into action under stressful conditions than operating the safety lever.
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Not sure who they where with but everyone I know including myself was C&L'd

People often equate range-use of their pistol of choice with what it would be like to use in combat. This is just laughable. When the lead is flying, you want VERY VERY reliable and you want operation that requires as little fine-motor control as possible. Also, if you go striker-fired, I suspect you would not issue troops the Glock 17 commercial trigger. Likely the military would issue the New-York trigger for the same reason the NYPD does. With the BHP, the gun is not loaded until you fully intent to put a hole in your enemy. With a Glock, for example, you need a lot more training to ensure carry safety with a chambered round.

I half expect if the UK stays with the Glock, the typical opord will stipulate carry on an empty chamber and they will load upon drawing, similar to the current BHP manual of arms.
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I disagree - look at the SOR for the Pistol Replacement -- while it stalled/died as no one would give Colt Canada the TDP (duh) the trigger pull requirement was not up into the retarded NY zone.

Who in there right mind carries a pistol with an empty chamber other than an idiot? IF you need a pistol, you need it right FU*^ing NOW...
 
Not sure how one is concerned about fine motor skills operating the Browning safety (not to mention the mag release, trigger, or sight alignment for that matter) but has not problem with an AR safety or mag release. I think the whole "fine motor skills" argument is mostly bs. Sure perhaps someone who's never been trained, but for someone well versed with firearms it's really a non issue. Operating the trigger and aligning the sights correctly are about as fine motor skills as you can get, if you can do that in a fight running the safety or mag release should be easy.
 
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