Actually, most of the top trainers these days say "use what works for you, but be sure it's reliable" and "know how to do it other ways just in case". James says do it my way, there is no other way, but that's James. James has followers who are a bit rabid, sometimes.
Slide Stop vs Slide Release
- Thread starter EdGCNM
- Start date
Actually, most of the top trainers these days say "use what works for you, but be sure it's reliable" and "know how to do it other ways just in case". James says do it my way, there is no other way, but that's James. James has followers who are a bit rabid, sometimes.
^^^ ...Absolutely agree with above. Especially when forced to use one handed manipulations. (Due to injury or whatever...) Use the slide stop lever, boot, duty belt, holster, whatever you need to do to get your pistol back into battery to get back in the fight!
Fine vs gross motor skill is almost entirely misunderstood.
Anything done with the hand (below the wrist) is a fine motor skill. Whether you grab something with all your fingers (overhand grip to cycle the slide) or just one finger (thumb to depress the lever to drop the slide), it is ALL fine motor skill.
Releasing the snaps or retention method of your holster is fine motor, lining up the sights, pressing the mag release, inserting a mag in the gun, all fine motor.
Using the lever to drop the slide is also measurably faster than the overhand method, using a shot timer.
And to name just one top level tactics and firearms instructor that uses the lever, Jason Falla from Redback One.
Anything done with the hand (below the wrist) is a fine motor skill. Whether you grab something with all your fingers (overhand grip to cycle the slide) or just one finger (thumb to depress the lever to drop the slide), it is ALL fine motor skill.
Releasing the snaps or retention method of your holster is fine motor, lining up the sights, pressing the mag release, inserting a mag in the gun, all fine motor.
Using the lever to drop the slide is also measurably faster than the overhand method, using a shot timer.
And to name just one top level tactics and firearms instructor that uses the lever, Jason Falla from Redback One.
Racking the slide is used to load, reload, immediate action. Why learn a non ambi movement that isn't guaranteed to chamber a round. Racking the slide always loads a round. The practice metcalfe mentioned is a valued asset gained during practice and/or training which will aid you in a gunfight if you need to reload or execute an IA.
Tdc
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I think it's safe to say that those who never use their slide release, ever, aren't really that concerned about speed.
I've never had a slide release depression result in anything less than a full return to battery. It's faster, it's reliable, i don't see the big issue with it.
I've never had a slide release depression result in anything less than a full return to battery. It's faster, it's reliable, i don't see the big issue with it.
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LAV, Ken Hackathorn, Todd Green, Scott Warren, Jerry Barnhart, among folks I can mention by name -- several still actives in both US Army and Navy SMU do it too.
Pretty diverse group of folks all in all.
I used to use an overhand slide release -- however about 6 years ago LAV beat that out of me.
On a 1911 or BHP I use my left thumb after I inserted the mag.
On Sig's, Glocks or M&P's I generally "auto-forward" -- now Jason Falla, Todd Green and Scott Warren all give me #### for this -- and I have had two incidents when it did not work (In about 45,000rds, 1 M&P45 and one last week on my M&P9 CORE) -- so while I generally plan for auto-forward on Sig's, Glocks, or M&P's I will use my right thumb to release the slide if in that split second the slide does not go forward.
As far as nomenclature - I call it a Slide Stop, and one can depress the Slide Stop to stop it stopping
Diverse is an understatement. Some current and ex-SF, some of the best small-arms instructors in North America, as well as top competitors...
My experience with guns not picking up a round when they 'auto-forward' has been that it only happens on a partial mag. When slamming the partial mag up into the magwell, the spring gets compressed just enough as the slide is dropping, causing it to pass over the round and close on an empty chamber.
I've never had it happen with a full mag...
Now, that is by no means a scientific analysis. It's just my interpretation of what seems to be happening based on my personal experience as well as watching it happen too many times to count with candidates on course.
Here are my thoughts:
The slide lock/release is a designed feature of the pistol and it is faster.
If your pistol does not return to battery when you are using the slide release the problem isn't with the gun but the person maintaining it.
In terms of the 1911 the slide release is easy to use single handed right or left. Non-ambi thumb safeties are the only difficult thing left handed with the 1911.
Yeah, if a person is checking for malfunctions while shooting they should be taking better care of their firearm in the first place.
The slide lock/release is a designed feature of the pistol and it is faster.
If your pistol does not return to battery when you are using the slide release the problem isn't with the gun but the person maintaining it.
In terms of the 1911 the slide release is easy to use single handed right or left. Non-ambi thumb safeties are the only difficult thing left handed with the 1911.
Yeah, if a person is checking for malfunctions while shooting they should be taking better care of their firearm in the first place.
I've yet to see the slide release method fail to chamber a round any more often than the overhand. In other words, I can't remember seeing it ever fail.
Anything that lessens the time my pistol is out of the fight is worth learning. That half second to one second of speed increase could save my life one day.
By that logic anyone who is reloading should focus more on marksmanship than saving time during a reload.
You people have clearly missed the point. Racking the slide is a COMMON manual of arms. You do it when you load, reload and its the second half of your immediate action drill. The more you practice the better you will be. By racking the slide during reloads you are improving your manual of arms for executing an IA.
As for slide not returning to battery issues. That has nothing to do with using the slide over the slide lock. The SL only works if the last round has been fired and the SL is activated by a properly functioning magazine and isn't being ridden by the users thumb(s). The slide always chambers a round, its what its designed to do, whether the action sequence is done manually or automatically is of no bearing. Whether or not the magazine is functioning properly with regards to last round hold open is of no bearing. Whether or not there is a round chambered is of no bearing. Rack the slide you chamber a round.
You said it yourself that non ambi 1911's are difficult to use. Try running the slide lock on a sig left handed, they're near impossible right handed. Ever wonder why some slide locks are so small and their serrations stack like shingles? Its because they aren't to be used to release the slide, they're for manually locking the slide open.
Running the slide works on all autos for all shooters. Its also a common manual of arms. This equates to less time spent learning secondary operations. This means less to forget when under stress. This means you don't care what auto or what hand you shoot with as the method is the same. This means you can spend more time on what's important which is making hits. Using the slide vs slide lock is universal, anything else is specialized.
Tdc
The fastest method is to use the slide release, period.
If you want to fill your hand with pieces of hot brass use the overhand method. Yes it has happened. I know some of the tactical garus will argue their hands never get near the port of the slide but under pressure or in a gun fight it might and if the fresh cartridge hits the ejector the gun goes boom. Interesting though guys llke KevinB and Wicked Police who actually do or have had to rely on their pistol subscribe to the slide stop method. Time is everything and when you see guys like Vogel hitting the slide release or slide stop if you will, they do it because it is simply faster. From what I have witnessed it is a hell of a lot safer too!
I see the argument now is the over hand method works every time insinuating the slide release doesn't. Well I have never had the slide not close when hitting the slide release and if speed is your requirement using the slide release is the answer.
Take Care
Bob
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I think your head would spin if you saw how fast my g/f fixes guns that I make malf on her...
As a 1911 guy, it would be worth your while to practice up too...
I (and I can tell that TDC is as well), am all about increasing speed through efficiency. Efficiency is the balance of speed and effectiveness.
Racking the slide works on a reload whether the slide is open or closed, and it works when there is a bad round in the chamber, or no round in the chamber, or 2 rounds trying to be in the chamber... the motion for fixing a stovepipe is also the same. That's 3 of 4 possible malfunctions covered by 1 motion, that happens to be the same way one can reload their pistol.
Hitting the slide release works if the slide is open, and only for reloading.
There is no 1/2 or 1 second advantage to it. We're talking a tenth slower at best. As I said originally, by running the slide every time you reload, you are practicing multiple functions, not one. It may be a little slower on a reload, but knowing how to fix a malfunction without any thought, just a reaction is where time matters to me.
At the end of the day, I run my gun the way i like because it's right for me. I don't like arguing about which way is better or worse, but have a hard time not replying to elitist attitudes that say their way is best, when they are not informed on why others would do it differently.
I have to rely on mine and have been trained never to use the slide stop as a "go". Potato-potaato. I don't ask why anymore, I just do what's been drilled into me because to change now would be bad (not to mention if I ever did it during a recertification etc I'd be crucified). I say my way is best for me because it's how I've been repetitively trained. I don't care what anyone else does...nobody needs to get up on a soap box and preach their method. If you like your way of doing it and are used to it fill your boots.
Yes the slide release works every time, if the slide is open.
You may very well be a better man than me, and fix problems without pause, but I know myself that even when the slide runs forward by itself I look at it for a moment instead of shooting because I'm used to telling it to go forward, not it doing it on its own.
I'm talking about shooting under stress here. Shooting and moving with your heart beating out of your chest, not standing at a bench plinking away. This is when your caveman brain kicks in. The less options you give yourself, the faster you make a decision on how to fix something.
