Unrestricted AR type rifle in .223?

I'm not new to the sport ... I have several pistols and my trusty SKS. I all to painfully understand the cost of feeding my toys ... New to black rifles though, thus my post.

My buddy (more like a buddy of a buddy) has the AR180B and it would probably be my first choice, but after buying 1000 rnds of surplus ammo, I'm knocking on a minimum of $2000 so that doesn't seem realistic right now. I am so jealous of those of you who can drop that kind of money on a hobby! lol I am approaching 20 years of employmetn at the same place in a couple months, and I have planted the seed that I would MUCH RATHER have a 'healthy' gift certificate at my favorite gun store than a stupid watch, which is the standard here ... pretty sure I will get it, so that will help.

I love the looks of the AR and the price of the CQ-A simply cannot be beat, but it leaves me tied to the range. I have no issues buying a Norinco ... I might have to look closer at the T97. I have never really been drawn to a bullpup ... however, I am a 'righty' (I've seen the issues leftys have with the extraction), it is NR and seems to get good reviews wherever I read. The VZ-58 also looks very ###y ... gives me an AK boner instantly! lol Plus it comes in 7.69x39 of which I already have a couple thousand rnds for my SKS ... hmmmmm. Not sure about the Mini ... will have to do more research on that one. I will check out he one on EE.

Thanks for all your help guys ... you were really helpful and I feel much more imformed. I should have initally said NR 'Black Semi rifle' instead of 'AR type rifle' as I do understand the difference. I think I will now take a much better look at the T97, however if someone knows of a great deal on a AR180B, PM me! ... after all, someone has to support Mastercard!

6Gun
 
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cr5 said:
The XCR-L is a fine rifle but not as accurate as an AR
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This is not a true statement. Which AR are you comparing it to. This relies entirely on the brand of AR and how it is optioned/kitted/modified etc. Side by side, out of the box, my XCR-L is as accurate or more than any AR I have tried or witnessed. I know that many AR's can and will compete if designed & built to do so. You cannot make a blanket statement like that without qualifying. That is like saying that a block of steel is heavier than a bag of rocks. It depends on the size of the block vs the bag.
 
That depends on the quality of the AR. I would say most AR's in the same price range as an XCR will be more accurate then the XCR. There are plenty of cheaper AR's though that are about the same or even worse accuracy then the XCR at about 2-3moa. My XCR was about 2 moa average with bulk ammo which isnt too bad, they arent as bad as everyone says. I never tried match ammo out of it so I'm not sure what it was capable of, but my new AR is very accurate at about .5moa with match ammo or reloads. This is going to be case dependant as every AR is different as there are so many different variations and different parts.
 
ted_dent said:
Care to elaborate? Considering they've been made for about 40 years they are obviously a successful design. I know accuracy was spotty with the earlier models but the newer ones and especially the target models have made that argument passé.

Maybe you got a dud but that's not much of a basis for dismissing the model outright. I'm sure there has even been a sub-par Ferrari produced at one time or another but that isn't a solid rationale for not buying one. I've had 4 Minis at various time (still have two of them) and they had all been solid performers.
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This is only my opinion based on my experience with them so don't get defensive and argue back and forth trying to convince me they are worth another look. I'm not interested. Since you asked here you go.

I had a stainless ranch model with 1:7 twist and a synthetic stock with the steel folder and pinned on muzzle brake and it couldn't do better than about 5 moa with any ammo (with a scope), some ammo was quite a bit worse.
The design is solid and they are reliable with Ruger mags but I have no interest in a rifle that can't hit what you aim at. The new target versions are too heavy and overpriced in my opinion. I liked the idea of the ranch as it was light non restricted and semi-auto but the accuracy just made me frustrated. Plus the fact that it needs a gas regulator since it shoots empties 30+ feet and beats the heck out of your brass. Comparing it to a Ferrari is a stretch, actually it's a joke, my Swiss and HK would be closer to the Ferrari and the Mini-14 would be more like a sunfire.
It's fine if you like them but once you shot something of higher quality you will see what you're missing and the attraction to the mini fades quickly.

YMMV
 
AWOL said:
This is not a true statement. Which AR are you comparing it to. This relies entirely on the brand of AR and how it is optioned/kitted/modified etc. Side by side, out of the box, my XCR-L is as accurate or more than any AR I have tried or witnessed. I know that many AR's can and will compete if designed & built to do so. You cannot make a blanket statement like that without qualifying. That is like saying that a block of steel is heavier than a bag of rocks. It depends on the size of the block vs the bag.
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Plus.......... which AR can you go swimming with??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db8mmURVswc
 
AWOL said:
This is not a true statement. Which AR are you comparing it to. This relies entirely on the brand of AR and how it is optioned/kitted/modified etc. Side by side, out of the box, my XCR-L is as accurate or more than any AR I have tried or witnessed. I know that many AR's can and will compete if designed & built to do so. You cannot make a blanket statement like that without qualifying. That is like saying that a block of steel is heavier than a bag of rocks. It depends on the size of the block vs the bag.
Click to expand...

I've owned a 14.5 inch and 10.5 inch Armalite, a 20 inch Bushmaster, a PWS 12.5 inch (still own this one), and my build with an S&J 16.5 inch barrel which I sold and installed an ATRS 18 inch heavy barrel and every one of them were about 3 MOA with 55gr FMJ factory loads, some were a little better. My PWS for instance will easilly do 2 MOA with 55gr bulk. If you have an XCR that can do that consistently with factory cheap American Eagle and not need a 3-5 minute break to cool in between shots then you got a good one. I have no doubt that an XCR is capable of close to MOA with handloads but most AR's are capable of sub MOA with handloads.
As Matty308 said, if you take an AR that costs the same as an XCR you will without a doubt have a more accurate rifle, but in my experience with my $1400 Armalites you will have at least as accurate but likely a more accurate rifle for $1000 less.
So from my experience with AR's it is a true statement. I've shot quite a few XCR's and a Tavor and many other black rifles and the AR is more accurate than all of them by design. If the AR wasn't restricted I wouldn't own any others. I sold my Swiss Arms because it wasn't living up to the hype about how accurate it was and now I have my second HK SL8 as it is the most accurate semi auto I've shot other than the AR, and with the HERA lower and ACR stock it is much better looking and more comfortable than the thumbhole stock.

So, the AR rocks are heavier than the XCR steel in my experience and the experience of most others on this board from what I've read over the years on here.
Don't get me wrong, I like the XCR and don't expect it to be a sniper rifle, it was designed as a battle rifle and therefore anything better than 5 MOA is great, I think all of them are in the 3 MOA range (some a little better) which is more than acceptable. The AR is just a more accurate rifle.
 
AWOL said:
This is not a true statement. Which AR are you comparing it to. This relies entirely on the brand of AR and how it is optioned/kitted/modified etc. Side by side, out of the box, dollar for dollar, my XCR-L is as accurate or more than any AR I have tried or witnessed. I know that many AR's can and will compete if designed & built to do so. You cannot make a blanket statement like that without qualifying. That is like saying that a block of steel is heavier than a bag of rocks. It depends on the size of the block vs the bag.
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Does your statement still holds true now..?
 
6GunJustice said:
I'm not new to the sport ... I have several pistols and my trusty SKS. I all to painfully understand the cost of feeding my toys ... New to black rifles though, thus my post.

My buddy (more like a buddy of a buddy) has the AR180B and it would probably be my first choice, but after buying 1000 rnds of surplus ammo, I'm knocking on a minimum of $2000 so that doesn't seem realistic right now. I am so jealous of those of you who can drop that kind of money on a hobby! lol I am approaching 20 years of employmetn at the same place in a couple months, and I have planted the seed that I would MUCH RATHER have a 'healthy' gift certificate at my favorite gun store than a stupid watch, which is the standard here ... pretty sure I will get it, so that will help.

I love the looks of the AR and the price of the CQ-A simply cannot be beat, but it leaves me tied to the range. I have no issues buying a Norinco ... I might have to look closer at the T97. I have never really been drawn to a bullpup ... however, I am a 'righty' (I've seen the issues leftys have with the extraction), it is NR and seems to get good reviews wherever I read. The VZ-58 also looks very ###y ... gives me an AK boner instantly! lol Plus it comes in 7.69x39 of which I already have a couple thousand rnds for my SKS ... hmmmmm. Not sure about the Mini ... will have to do more research on that one. I will check out he one on EE.

Thanks for all your help guys ... you were really helpful and I feel much more imformed. I should have initally said NR 'Black Semi rifle' instead of 'AR type rifle' as I do understand the difference. I think I will now take a much better look at the T97, however if someone knows of a great deal on a AR180B, PM me! ... after all, someone has to support Mastercard!

I'd love to meet up with someone and test fire a T97 ... ?? You'll find me at the Abby Rod and Gun on weekends. I'll let you try my .454 Casull! BIG BANG :)

6Gun
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Just tossin' this out to you......CZ858 shooting 7.62x39 (you've already said you have a fair few rds for the SKS) the Bruger & Thomet mag adapter and Rob Arms XCR?? 10rd pistol mags and have some fun. Not a black rifle but still fun as hell to "bang" around with!!
 
Johnnyjellybean said:
Plus.......... which AR can you go swimming with??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db8mmURVswc
Click to expand...

Go ahead and go swimming with your rifle. Just like the Swiss and a few other piston operated 223's, if you shoot it full of water it will function but you will ruin your barrel. The water can't get out of the way fast enough and is forced around the bullet which due to the hydraulic pressure created will cause bulges in your barrel. Factories and military special units don't care about this since they just replace the barrel the next time they service it but for the average civilian it's a stupid idea. So if you want to ruin your $2500 rifle go ahead.
And yes you can swim with a DI AR as long as you drain it before shooting.
And if you must know I could swim with my PWS MK112 and the HK MR223 is also fine with water. Most piston guns will function even if it is a bad idea.
 
We can do this all night but we're getting off topic. The OP wants to spend $1000 and get a semi auto 223 and with that budget there aren't many options. If I were in his shoes I would look at Armalite, Windham, DPMS, NEA, Core AR's and do a little research and pick the one he likes the best. Can always sell it later and put the money towards something non restricted.
Nothing you say is going to make an XCR fit into the OP's budget and that is why I suggested he go with the AR that he originally wanted and live with the restricted status until he can afford to get into a non restricted 223. At which point the XCR is a very good option to consider depending what you want to do with it and what your expectations are.
 
cr5 said:
I've owned a 14.5 inch and 10.5 inch Armalite, a 20 inch Bushmaster, a PWS 12.5 inch (still own this one), and my build with an S&J 16.5 inch barrel which I sold and installed an ATRS 18 inch heavy barrel and every one of them were about 3 MOA with 55gr FMJ factory loads, some were a little better. My PWS for instance will easilly do 2 MOA with 55gr bulk. If you have an XCR that can do that consistently with factory cheap American Eagle and not need a 3-5 minute break to cool in between shots then you got a good one. I have no doubt that an XCR is capable of close to MOA with handloads but most AR's are capable of sub MOA with handloads.
As Matty308 said, if you take an AR that costs the same as an XCR you will without a doubt have a more accurate rifle, but in my experience with my $1400 Armalites you will have at least as accurate but likely a more accurate rifle for $1000 less.
So from my experience with AR's it is a true statement. I've shot quite a few XCR's and a Tavor and many other black rifles and the AR is more accurate than all of them by design. If the AR wasn't restricted I wouldn't own any others. I sold my Swiss Arms because it wasn't living up to the hype about how accurate it was and now I have my second HK SL8 as it is the most accurate semi auto I've shot other than the AR, and with the HERA lower and ACR stock it is much better looking and more comfortable than the thumbhole stock.

So, the AR rocks are heavier than the XCR steel in my experience and the experience of most others on this board from what I've read over the years on here.
Don't get me wrong, I like the XCR and don't expect it to be a sniper rifle, it was designed as a battle rifle and therefore anything better than 5 MOA is great, I think all of them are in the 3 MOA range (some a little better) which is more than acceptable. The AR is just a more accurate rifle.
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You sound much like this guy...
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=900464
 
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Buy once cry once. I will be buying an ar someday (I have my RPal) but I, like the op, hate the idea of only range shooting. Nothing's more fun then the sand pits with a group of buddies
 
cr5 said:
Go ahead and go swimming with your rifle. Just like the Swiss and a few other piston operated 223's, if you shoot it full of water it will function but you will ruin your barrel. The water can't get out of the way fast enough and is forced around the bullet which due to the hydraulic pressure created will cause bulges in your barrel. Factories and military special units don't care about this since they just replace the barrel the next time they service it but for the average civilian it's a stupid idea. So if you want to ruin your $2500 rifle go ahead.
And yes you can swim with a DI AR as long as you drain it before shooting.
And if you must know I could swim with my PWS MK112 and the HK MR223 is also fine with water. Most piston guns will function even if it is a bad idea.
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So surfing would be better?
 
"I just sold my Swiss Arms and I thought it was a great rifle but didn't live up to the hype in the accuracy department. "

I really have to question if you did a proper accuracy test with a variety of match ammo and handloads. Also be aware that bulk ammo does not give great accuracy. I did a thread testing Swiss Arms rifles using a variety of bulk, premium and handloaded ammo. Bulk ammo shot around 2-3 moa, premium 1-2, and handloads were 1 MOA. They were all 10 round groups. This is quite good for a rack grade service rifle, and you won't be beating it unless you get a bolt action or a custom match grade AR.
 
Only one person briefly mentioned the Core 15 ... any opinions on this baby?

I realistically cannot 'pull the trigger' (pardon the pun) right now, but hope to soon. I tend to, and have, researched to death before I have made any firearm purchase and as a result, I NEVER plan to part with anything I currently own. So that is what I am trying to do now ... lay all the options on the table, then make an informed decision so I am ready for when the time comes ... likely a few months from now.

Right now I am leaning towards the AR180B ... the more I research, the more I like this rifle. Unfortunately there is one on EE (thanks for the PM Tom E Gun) and one 'like new' on Marstar.com for decent prices, but it just is beyond my finances at this time. Doh! Even if I could swing it, I would be left fondling it for awhile (which isn't necessarily bad) because the ammo is another 300 or so.

6Gun
 
6GunJustice said:
Right now I am leaning towards the AR180B ... the more I research, the more I like this rifle. Unfortunately there is one on EE (thanks for the PM Tom E Gun) and one 'like new' on Marstar.com for decent prices, but it just is beyond my finances at this time. Doh! Even if I could swing it, I would be left it for awhile (which isn't necessarily bad) because the ammo is another 300 or so.

6Gun
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The one at Marstar for $1300 is an AR180 (no "B") and is prob (12.5) that is why it is only $1300. The one on the EE right now (not mine) is $2000.
You don't have to buy a 1000 rounds of ammo. Infact I could probably be convinced to throw in a few boxes of ammo to help you out and cut down on the amount of "fondling" required.
 
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Su 16, Swiss rifle, CZ 858 (in 223), Travor 21 can all take ar 15 magazines or be modified to take them (swiss rifle)
 
Tom E Gun said:
The one at Marstar for $1300 is an AR180 (no "B") and is prob (12.5) that is why it is only $1300. The one on the EE right now (not mine) is $2000.
You don't have to buy a 1000 rounds of ammo. Infact I could probably be convinced to throw in a few boxes of ammo to help you out and cut down on the amount of "fondling" required.
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Ahhhhh ... thanks for the clarification! Gonna have to leave it to fate as I will have to wait abit ... simply not an option right at this time. Aaaaarrrg! This is KILLING me! If the inconceivable happens with the 'gods' smiling at me and it is still available in a couple months, I will be all over it like a fat kid on a smartie! I'm gonna have to hit the range this weekend hard with my stupid pistols to blow off some of this stress! LOL

Just to clarify, the LAR15 mags will not work on the AR180 ... correct?

6Gun
 
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