Blasphemy!!!

BeaverMeat

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
331   0   1
Location
Nanaimo, B.C.
Going through some gunsmiths books I recently acquired

...and found this.

10273207563_52537a043c_z.jpg


Burn it with fire! lol.

All of the books have at least one chapter on converting military rifles. For some reason I have the urge to rip the pages out. :evil:
 
.
A lot of people today judge things by today's standards, and make decisions and comments without really looking at the attitudes, standards and events of the time. While today, we are looking a preserving and restoring many of these old firearms to original condition, you have to realize that back in the 1950s and 1960s, there was a great glut of surplus firearms coming into Canada and the USA. Much like the Mosin-Nagants and SKS rifles from Russia, but multiply these present imports by TEN.

European Countries were broke and devestated by WWII. They had thousands of people unemployed, almost no cash economy, and a gloomy immediate future. However, there was a "War Surplus" of firearms and equipment. By selling these, cash could be raised. By converting these to sporting rifles, not only cash could be raised, but also people could be employed.

In the USA, many of the companies, such as Williams, had been doing War Production work, and now that was stopped. With the great influx of surplus rifles, it is no wonder that companies like Williams would want to survive by increasing their sales of their sights and products.

Civilian production of Hunting rifles took a fair time to get back on track. There were still shortages of firearms from Winchester and other major manufacturers well into the 1950s, so the people who wanted to hunt and shoot turned to buying a cheap rifle and making it more suitable for hunting. And these people did not have a lot of money available, or even a good paying job to buy the more expensive name brand rifles, even if these rifles were readily available.

There was also not the awareness of History, nor the amount of Collectors we have today. The firearms were cheap and plentiful, and no one really thought that these old wartime relics would command the prices they do today. A good SMLE could be chosen out of a barrel for a $10 bill with a Number 4 Lee-Enfield going for under $15, and today those same rifles are in the $400 to $600 range. My first Lewis Gun, complete with wooden chest, spare barrel, anti-aircraft sights, and lots of parts cost me $60 back in 1961 and what would a Lewis like that be worth today to someone who could own and afford it?

It is still happening. How many times have you seen a "Tactical SKS" advertised, and how many accessories are available to help you hang anything you want, maybe including the kitchen sink, on a SKS. How many Mosin-Nagants have been converted to "Snipers" with modern made mounts and scopes? How about Number 4 Lee-Enfields with modern made Number 32 Scopes on them have been made.

Back in those days, it was not only the accessory companies like Williams who produced literature on converting rifles. Do-it-yourself magazines like Mechanix Illustrated and others showed how to convert them. Take a look sometime at the American National Rifle Associations publication "The Gunsmiths Guide" and you will find conversion articles. (How to convert your Springfield to an Economy Sporter, a Target Rifle, and a full blown Free Style Rifle.)

Many of these surplus rifles were stripped to provide a basis for sporting rifles. Navy Arms used the Siamese Mausers for 45-70 rifles, Portugese Verguerro rifles were stripped for the trigger guards and hinged floorplates for custom rifles --the Mauser type floorplate was $150 but the same floorplate came on a $40 rifle so you could take the floorplate off and throw the rest of the rifles away. Cooper used Swedish Mausers for the actions only a short time ago.

Take a look at the overall picture and time frame.
.
 
There are the elegent, gunsmith quality conversions (which would likely be in this book) and then there is bubba's basement specials which is an attempt to read and bubba at the same time.

I've seen some real horror stories and heard some too. If you guys remember the movie "Minority Report" with the thought police, why can't we have that for bubba rifles ?
 
You definitely need to situate this in the times when sporterizing MILSURPs made sound economic sense. Back in the late 50's/early '60s a purpose made Model 70 Winchester or Savage 99 was selling for $125 or so, mighty expensive when stacked up against a sporterized MILSURP. I guess I'm dating myself, but I bought a copy of the Williams booklet when it was on the market and subsequently sportered both a M98 Mauser and a M1903 Springfield along the lines shown in the book. They have been excellent hunting rifles over the yrs and have gotten me truckloads of deer.

BTW, all of the cheap MILSURP imports ended in the US in 1968 with the gun control legislation and remained on hold for the next 25 yrs or so. This legislation was crafted in the aftermath of the Kennedy assassination and was sold on it's emotional appeal. Interestingly, some of the main proponents of this were Congressmen from the north-east states who were trying to protect the firearms industry and related jobs in their own constituencies from the glut of cheap MILSURPs.
 
Buffdog, I was around when you could buy a No1Mk3 for $9.95 and a No4 for $11.95. I NEVER "sportyized" any of them. But of course I don't hunt.
Whenever the subject comes up I still remember getting talked out of a pristine 98k 1936 Obendorf mauser so he could sporterize it
 
I find it interesting, the "holier than thou attitude" expressed here. There are many "less than collectable condition" surplus rifles that could be "improved", and they belong to the owner to do as they wish.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I too bought surplus No. 1 Mk. 3 rifles from Eatons, stacked like cordwood, at $9.95 each. Yes, I modified them too, to make a more handy hunting rifle.
All those conversions make your unmodified and fine condition military rifle worth something more these days. Lots of those rifles gave hobby gunsmiths a start, learning skills that were to be of value to a host of shooters.
And yes, some were chiseled by Bubba with no skill and less artistry, as is inevitable.
Don't you mistake it, that $9.95 and even $14.95 for a No.4 Mk. 1* rifle was hard to come by in those days when working for 75 cents per hour, or less.
 
I encourage everyone in this thread to watch Larry Potterfield on the subject, by the way, that's a Yugo he's holding so don't get your panties in a bunch!

 
That's a good starter book. It may still be available.

The biggest problem with it is that many of the after market components are no longer available.

As mentioned before, there are lots of already sportered milsurps available that are not restoreable. Even if they are, most times it's cheaper to buy a complete rifle than restore one to its original condition.

Not every milsurp is a collectable piece of history.

No, this isn't blasphemy. Recently, I bought several 98 actions dating from 1905 to 1943. None of them are restoreable. All have had their charger lips ground along with the rest of the rear receiver bridge and were drilled and tapped for scope mounts. These were found in the basement of a local house, after the owner had passed away. They are complete actions with modified bolts for scope clearance, trigger guards etc. Cheap as well, 5 for $300. These make ideal candidates for a sporting rifle. Two of them still have their original barrels, both in 8x57. The barrels have been cut back to 22 inches and the rear sights removed. One is already in the process of becoming a decent sporter and is going to live in an old Herter's stock, that I don't remember where it came from. The original trigger guard will be changed out for one of those lovely replacement units from Sherwood with molded in and embossed animals on the floor plate. These, to my knowledge are no longer available. The original safey shroud and shield have been replaced with one of the units available from Tradex and a Timney trigger with side safety is getting ready to be installed.

The 8x57 is a formidable round. It will cleanly take any animal in North America and likely most of the world. Especially when loaded to its full potential, with good bullets. Plenty of which are available. Whoever gets this rifle as a Christmas present will not be the least bit undergunned.

Blasphemy be darned, the old Mauser actions make fine sporters, if you can do the work yourself and have reasonable expectations of cost and what it is worth when you're finished.

Milsurp collectors that hunt, often turn their noses up at sportered milsurps. STRANGE to say the least. They spout copiously how wonderful their milsurps are all of the time but wouldn't even consider a fine sporter made on the same action. Give your head a shake.

Ever since the first military rifles were produced, people bought, stole or traded those actions to produce fine sporting rifles. Many of those rifles are still a source of genuine good workmanship and pride for their owners.

Many companies, Mauser as a good example made up sporting rifles on exactly the same actions they sold to the militaries of the world. Same goes for the Ross Rifle Company of Canada to name a few.

Back in the day, all matching 98s, still in the wrap with matching bayonets and kit could be had for $100/crate. Back then, that wasn't as cheap as it sounds today. The vast majority of those firearms were made into sporters and if it weren't for those cheap plentiful rifles, along with the cheap ammo, we wouldn't have the firearms rights, limited now, that we enjoy today. Those milsurps, made it possible for anyone that was willing to part with a days wages, at the time, to become shooters, hunters and jack leg gunsmiths we like to call Grampa or Dad. They just couldn't afford to buy a factory sporter at the time. They cost a weeks wages or more and that was just to much for people with young families.

Those Mausers/ Enfields/etc were the SKS/Mosin Nagant rifles and the crates of ammo were the 7.62x39/x54 that are available today.

How many of you out there, got your start with an SKS/Mosin Nagant and dolled it up with aftermarket products that are relatively cheap and readily available???
 
Perhaps "blasphemy" is inappropriate for this subject. Yes, it was the thing to do in those days. Now a days... not so much. The availability of reasonably priced rifles on the market and the rising cost of a vintage milsurp, what's the point.

Perhaps I am just jealous that I missed out on all the dime a dozen milsurps.

It always makes me cringe when I am reading my Gun Pro texts.

Chapter One: Setting up your shop
Chapter Two: Accurizing military rifles.
Chapter Three: Sporterizing military rifles; 1903, M98, P17, Arasaka, Krag... etc.

Right into the good stuff I suppose. :(

I don't consider myself a "gun snob"' I just like the vintage feel of an old military rifle and I like to keep them original.
 
I have one and I can't understand why they would remove a few inches of wood and a milled nose cap.


Because their idea of beauty and quick, light handling were different from yours. Not only that, milsurps that were in full military garb were frowned upon by many with bad memories of the then recent wars. Might be why the AR platform rifles are considered to be so scary by the antis and portrayed as uncontrollable, wild killing machines with minds of their own.

I feel as you do but how many No5 rifles have had their top wood, rear retainer ring and front ferrules discarded, as well as the flash hiders removed and barrel cut back, only to have a different front sight installed.
 
I find it interesting, the "holier than thou attitude" expressed here. There are many "less than collectable condition" surplus rifles that could be "improved", and they belong to the owner to do as they wish.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I too bought surplus No. 1 Mk. 3 rifles from Eatons, stacked like cordwood, at $9.95 each. Yes, I modified them too, to make a more handy hunting rifle.
All those conversions make your unmodified and fine condition military rifle worth something more these days. Lots of those rifles gave hobby gunsmiths a start, learning skills that were to be of value to a host of shooters.
And yes, some were chiseled by Bubba with no skill and less artistry, as is inevitable.
Don't you mistake it, that $9.95 and even $14.95 for a No.4 Mk. 1* rifle was hard to come by in those days when working for 75 cents per hour, or less.
-

As Buffdog and others have said- the times dictate.... The antique gun laws (double-entendre) favor the actions that you see in the antique market today. We now have a large influx of people who are not into antiques for their historical significance, instead many are there simply because of the way our antique gun laws are interpreted. Sad really, they want to tote a pistol around without the need to qualify for restricted (purchase as well as carry).

Many do not realize that modifying an antique so as to use modern ammo (to avoid reloading issues) disqualifies the antique status they seek to hide behind.

Our government is causing the situation that encourages this attitude.I am in tears.
janice
 
All very valid points. I admit that I have modified one of my SKSes, just a trigger job mind you. Yes, I feel proud of my work. So I do understand the feeling one gets from the accomplishment of doing so. I also have another SKS project that I have been working on of which someone could consider a bubba. I guess I'm a hypocrite of sorts.

My angst is manly towards sporterizing; as in cutting up the stock and barrel, etc. If one were to create a replica of a said version of specific rifle; IE creating a K98 sniper clone. I see no issue with that as it could be considered a homage.

But that is nearly my opinion.
 
Back
Top Bottom