Cold water quenching or heating treating bulllets

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Lot's of questions I have some WW's that I have separated the stick on's from the clip on's. I would guess that one third would be stick on's. I would like to use all of it and was wondering if I mixed them together and kept the velocity around 1200 fps or so if I was likely to get any leading in my barrel. I've read that Lyman recommends casting all bullets with a #2 alloy. Would heat treating or cold water quenching bring my bullets up to the required hardness considering my self imposed 1200 fps velocity ? Is 1400 fps out of the question ? Which would be the better process for hardening, heat treating or cold water quenching or is the result the same ? I just bought a cheap toaster oven to try the heat treatment. What temperature and time should I try
 
I hear both heat treating and quenching can have a hardening effect. I've never tested either as I don't have a hardness meter. I generally water quench, but less because of hardness and more because of my setup. Small container to water quench with so not much room to drop bullets, so I need them cool to the touch to move them by hand elsewhere.

If you are worried about leading, the most effective way to reduce leading is to size your bullets .001" greater than bore diameter of the firearm you will be shooting them with. You will never fully get rid of leading, so it is best to assume there will be some lead in the bore after shooting. Even my 500 Smith will have some leading in the bore with .501" bullets, but it isn't overkill, and isn't anything that can't be scraped out with some solvent and a bore brush.
 
just having some fun said:
Bullet fit (dia) is more important than hardness

For Cast bullet information go to
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forum.php
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this if a bullet dose not fit the gun right it will lead no matter if its heat treated linotype or pure lead I only water quench my bullets for 7.62x39 and my buckshot clip on WW water quenched gives about 20bhn with good fit im not having any issues in my sks I have tried a .690 round ball water quenched its nearly unstoppable

bullets will only harden with antimony in the mix BTW
 
I drop mine onto a layer of cardboard and let air cool and size to 2 thou over what the groove ought to be - I've never made a chamber cast or slugged a bore.
I've never tried any fancy technique and use something approximating number 2 alloy but can't be certain since I'm not about to buy a hardness tester. .

I shoot, and the only guns that accumulate lead are pistols (I buy my cast bullets for those) and one old Mauser with a frosted/pitted bore.

#### hasn't fallen off in 30+ years of doing this. :)
 
I cold water quench right out of the mold like kryogen said. I find this a easy step. Quick and cheap. I think is accomplishes the same thing as heat treating. Like others have said, Size is very important.
 
From what I have read, heat treating after-the-fact and then cold water dropping does the most to increase hardness.

However, I usually cast in the winter and drop my bullets into a 5 gallon pail full of slush (snow and water) and they get pretty darn hard. I can shoot plain based up to around 1900 fps and gas checked to around 2300 fps without leading.

Larger diameter bores seem to handle bullets going faster, for some reason. I can push plain based 360's to around 2200 fps out of a 45-70, for example, but I can't get close to that shooting .30 cal bullets. Not sure why.

If you are only looking for 1400 fps, that's no problem at all with water quenched wheel weights, even without the Yukon snow in your bucket.:)

As others have noted about sizing, the largest diameter bullet that you can chamber in your firearm is almost always going to give the best accuracy and least leading, in my experience.
 
You might want to add 1 or 2% tin to make the mold fill better and give you more consistent bullets. A gas check will get you a lot more than 1400fps right off the bat and easier accuracy. Using a wheel weight alloy, it'll probably be hard enough for most cast bullet applications without either heat treating or water dropping. I'd try water dropping first just because it's easy. If you're shooting rifle and using proper loads, you should see very little leading.
Grouch
 
I read this a long time ago so YMMV but as I recall, the problem with water quenching is that if you size the bullet after quenching (which is necessary because cast bullets vary in diameter when they come from the mould) the squeezing of the bullet in the sizer work softens the hardness created by the quenching. If you shoot the bullets as cast then the problem does not occur but you still have to figure a way to put lube on the bullet. Lee liquid Alox might do the trick but you still have the problem of inconsistent bullet diameters.

Years ago I tried the case hardening routine for my 44 mag bullets which I was using for silhouette shooting. I cast and sized the bullets and then heat treated them in the oven. Then I ran them through a sizer-luber using a size die that was 1 thou over the sized diameter (thus avoiding work softening the bullet) while at the same time installing a gas check. It worked well and the bullets were hard as hell considering they were just wheel weights. In the end, however, it was a lot of work for minimal gain. I found I had just as much luck minimizing leading by casting the bullets out of linotype (which was commonly available at the time) with a gas check and a good hard lube.

As others have pointed out, sizing the bullet to the correct diameter plus using a good quality lube will eliminate a lot of leading problems.
 
ted_dent said:
I read this a long time ago so YMMV but as I recall, the problem with water quenching is that if you size the bullet after quenching (which is necessary because cast bullets vary in diameter when they come from the mould) the squeezing of the bullet in the sizer work softens the hardness created by the quenching. If you shoot the bullets as cast then the problem does not occur but you still have to figure a way to put lube on the bullet. Lee liquid Alox might do the trick but you still have the problem of inconsistent bullet diameters.

Years ago I tried the case hardening routine for my 44 mag bullets which I was using for silhouette shooting. I cast and sized the bullets and then heat treated them in the oven. Then I ran them through a sizer-luber using a size die that was 1 thou over the sized diameter (thus avoiding work softening the bullet) while at the same time installing a gas check. It worked well and the bullets were hard as hell considering they were just wheel weights. In the end, however, it was a lot of work for minimal gain. I found I had just as much luck minimizing leading by casting the bullets out of linotype (which was commonly available at the time) with a gas check and a good hard lube.

As others have pointed out, sizing the bullet to the correct diameter plus using a good quality lube will eliminate a lot of leading problems.
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pan lubing is what I use and yes properly heat treated bullets from wheel weights are about as hard as water quenched linotype
 
Thanks for all the replies. I weighed all my lead today and I have 106# of cleaned clip on's and 32# stick on's. Plus I have almost 1 1/4# tin that I've scrounged from lead free solder from my garage and some pewter that I picked up at a thrift store. I think I'll throw it all together so I have a consistent mix and harden them by one method or other. Size is important. Thanks :cheers:
 
At 1200 fps you don't need to either water drop or heat treat. It won't make much difference at that low velocity.

The stick on weights are going to be almost pure lead and will run BHN 8-9.
The WW vary more than most people realize, running from BHN 10-14. Most of the ones I find are in the BHN 10-12 range.

For 1200 fps bullets I would leave the stick-ons out of the mix and go straight ww. Water drop if you like.
 
Heat Treating lead

http://www.lasc.us/brennan_4-5_heattreat.htm


I am curious how lead would lose its heat treated hardness over time.

I have never run across a similar statement for steel ?

Do you have an explanation ?

The attached link mentions hardened lead going from 30 BHN to 28 BHN in one year. But he gives no details, and a difference of 2 BHN or 7% over the year could be explained in a number of ways.

For example, uneven heat treating, metal alloy difference, change of measuring procedure, etc.

The chart with the article shows a 2 BHN difference at 440 degrees Fahrenheit, and a difference of 5 BHN at 445 degrees Fahrenheit.

Based on that I would suggest his lose of hardness is an error.
 
IIRC, it has something to do with grain refinement in the crystal lattice. when you melt or heat metal, the alloy component will forma solution which is pretty much homogenous. whe the metal cool or freeze, the different element will form a crystal, that is a structured crystaline lattice in which each element has a place. The more homogenous this crystal, the harder it will get. Once a crystal has frozen, element still displace within it, albeit at a very slow rate. That is why BHN will vary over time. An air cooled WW will harden a bit over 1 or 2 week then stabilise. A water dropped one will soften over the course of many years. The main advantage of heat treating the bullets is that it's a far more controlled process vs just droping them from the mould into cold water. You can also achieve harder bullets because of the same control over the temperature.

As far as sizing will change the BHN, well that's true. Only if you do things right, you will only size a thousandt or so without touching the alloy any deeper. the surface would stabilize at about ACWW BHN after a couple of weeks while the deeper alloy will stay harder. Since the rifling will bite deeper anyways, the softer layer will not pose problems.

Lastly, as been mentioned hardness is not everything. Seek a good fit to bore and know the limitations of cast in modern cartridges. If you are seeking good effect on games, you will need to use a heavier/slower boolit to make up the loss of velocity and one with a large meplat to upset the flesh enough for a kill.

Hope that help.
 
sail32 said:
Heat Treating lead

http://www.lasc.us/brennan_4-5_heattreat.htm


I am curious how lead would lose its heat treated hardness over time.

I have never run across a similar statement for steel ?

Do you have an explanation ?
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Again, I am recalling reading from several years back but the source actually suggested storing the hardened bullets in the freezer to retard the gradual loss of heat treating. Too much trouble for my taste and I used the bullets up fast enough that significant heat treat loss wasn't an issue. Saved me having to explain to the wife, too. :D
 
Why would you leave the stick-on's out ? I wanted to try and use all of weights, unless it will cause problems.
jethunter said:
At 1200 fps you don't need to either water drop or heat treat. It won't make much difference at that low velocity.

The stick on weights are going to be almost pure lead and will run BHN 8-9.
The WW vary more than most people realize, running from BHN 10-14. Most of the ones I find are in the BHN 10-12 range.

For 1200 fps bullets I would leave the stick-ons out of the mix and go straight ww. Water drop if you like.
Click to expand...


Heat Treating lead

http://www.lasc.us/brennan_4-5_heattreat.htm
I wonder how those guy's are doing with California's lead ban ?
 
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got to go said:
Why would you leave the stick-on's out ? I wanted to try and use all of weights, unless it will cause problems.
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50/50 SOWW/COWW water dropped (or heat treated if you prefer and have time to do it) is a good alloy recipe. Actually, lot's of guys use just that for their hunting loads. Plenty hard to resist the ride down the bore and plenty soft to upset a bit in flesh.

If you have a muzzle loader, or intend to get one, I'd hold onto that soft lead for the time being though. It's perfect for these applications and lead will not become easier to come by as time goes on.

Hope that help
 
Thanks, but I've done my time with muzzle loaders. Just to much mess and time involved. I think I'll just throw it all in my pot and give it a go. I have 106# of cleaned clip on's and 32# stick on's as ingots. Plus I have almost 1 1/4# tin. That should be OK I think. Even better after heat treating.
 
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