Price not being a consideration, would you take the S&B PMII 3-12x50 or the Hensoldt 3-12x56? I suspect it is a wash optically, but what about other features? Use would be mucking around out to 1000 yards or so - no competitions or anything like that. Flip a coin?
Top of the line optics...
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Friend uses a 8x to 80x 56mm March was shooting F class at 600m last shot on a 10 shot relay at Connaught Ranges he let a yelp out and said I just just caught the bull, I said what do you mean, He said I just caught bull at 7 o'clock. sure enough target went down, marker was at 7 o'clock.He could see bullet hole at 600m in the black bull.I was stunned.
I got behind his gun and was checking other people finishing up and yes you could see 30 cal bullets in black at 600m some amazing scope
I got behind his gun and was checking other people finishing up and yes you could see 30 cal bullets in black at 600m some amazing scope
duncansuds
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More power can be nice, but realistically, I pull the trigger at 10x from 300meters all the way to 1200. I believe 12 is a great range. I have found on 10x, I can often catch my own bullet swirl off of my 308 (braked and 16.5lbs) and will often be able to make my own corrections.I used to think the magnification was where it was at, but after shooting a few matches, less is more when you have movers, agony snap. 12-16x is plenty for reading mirage for windage as well, I put an FFP 4-16 on my new Lapua for shots out to 1800m (if I can get there) I believe it will be more then enough. All this being said, it depends on what you will be using it for, are you shooting sniper/precision matches ever? how bout bench only? maybe F-class would be nice to have some magnification. I know you said no matches, but I guess your style of shooting will reflect what you need in the optic the most.
Mystic Precision
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What are you trying to do?
Best is a relative thing. The best knife in the world is still going to be a PITA to drink soup.
Jerry
Best is a relative thing. The best knife in the world is still going to be a PITA to drink soup.
Jerry
New models may have come out since, but last time I looked at an S&B 3x12x50 and the comparable from hensoldt, I seem to recall Hensoldt's turrets not having zero stops.
I went with S&B.
For the investment, I would pour over the specs of your favourite models very very carefully. You can't really make a mistake with S&B, USO, Nightforce, Hensoldt or premiere, but you don't want to get one just to find out that you would have preferred another model for some obscure reason. Pay close attention to reticles, and turrets is my advice. Magnification is both a help and a hindrance so unless you are dedicated to f class groups on a bench, anything as low as 3x12 or even a fixed 10 has some compelling advantages for tactical style shooting where you could be 50m to 1000m. Remember specialization and versatility are competing concepts.
Keep in mind new stuff keeps comming out. There is a 3x20 now that I would look at if I were in the market again.
I went with S&B.
For the investment, I would pour over the specs of your favourite models very very carefully. You can't really make a mistake with S&B, USO, Nightforce, Hensoldt or premiere, but you don't want to get one just to find out that you would have preferred another model for some obscure reason. Pay close attention to reticles, and turrets is my advice. Magnification is both a help and a hindrance so unless you are dedicated to f class groups on a bench, anything as low as 3x12 or even a fixed 10 has some compelling advantages for tactical style shooting where you could be 50m to 1000m. Remember specialization and versatility are competing concepts.
Keep in mind new stuff keeps comming out. There is a 3x20 now that I would look at if I were in the market again.
I agree with this line of thinking... Everyone serms to think you need lots & lots of magnification to shoot at distance. If you're punching paper or strictly shooting for groups then Mag is nice, if you're hunting, banging steel, or shooting tactical comps mag is less important. I have done a $hit ton of shooting at 800-1200m with 10x and 16x optics and have never felt the scope was inadequate power wise.
Good glass trumps all, and the two scopes you are looking at are a couple of the finest. I am actually looking at these two scopes as well for a LR hunting rig I'd like to put together. The Hensoldt has a more forgiving eyebox and more elevation, it is also very compact. The Schmidt is probably the world standard in this mag range so pretty togh to find fault with it. I would suggest you look at the two together but I doubt there's a single retailer in Canada that has both in stock at the same time.
Playing and hunting. The hunting part would be 600 yards and less - usually quite a bit less. IIRC my average for the last bunch of animals was something like 160 yards with the long shot being 360 or so. I do hunt in poor light so good optics is a must (BC is one hour before sunrise to one hour after sunset for big game) - I've never used an illuminated reticle so that is something I am also curious about. The rest would be messing around out in cutblocks. As I mentioned I have no plans for competition at this point.
I don't neccessarily need a full on tactical scope, but it seems that "regular" scopes don't have all of the features I would like unless you go with a Z6i and BT or maybe the new Zeiss Victory HT with the ASV system, but both of those are still a bit of a comprimise with respect to turret adjustability and they cost as much or more than the scopes I mentioned.
I guess if I had to choose a couple of must haves it would be excellent low light performance (optical and reticle) and ease of elevation adjustment. Well, reliability and precision (return to zero etc) should be included in that list too.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Summerland, BC
The 2 scope you are looking at will certainly do what you want. Superb optics for sure. Just big and heavy for a hunting scope.
But if you are willing to look at that level of budget, the world is your oyster.
Many Euro scopes favor very low light as they can hunt at night so they may have an edge there. Never bothered as all the better common NA brands are plenty good for legal hunting here.
I am sure you are aware of the top tier brands and their features so have at it. Things to consider - really high mag in super low light is not always useable. Unless you have a very steady rest like a bench, I find you can start to loose orientation and essentially shoot "drunk". Try it by aiming with a high mag scope you have in near darkness at longer distances
Here a lit reticle that you can adjust intensity can be helpful. Not just a dot but the cross hair so you have something as a level for reference against the black background.
Some like green vs red but the intensity should have a very low end or it will blind you to the image.
So go out and play with various lit reticles and dot scopes till you find the function you want. THEN you can fill in with the bells and whistles on the scope tube. I think you will find that much of this stuff doesn't work in the dark so you prep before it gets dark... in which case, it wasn't that important for the dark cause you don't use it...
Jerry
But if you are willing to look at that level of budget, the world is your oyster.
Many Euro scopes favor very low light as they can hunt at night so they may have an edge there. Never bothered as all the better common NA brands are plenty good for legal hunting here.
I am sure you are aware of the top tier brands and their features so have at it. Things to consider - really high mag in super low light is not always useable. Unless you have a very steady rest like a bench, I find you can start to loose orientation and essentially shoot "drunk". Try it by aiming with a high mag scope you have in near darkness at longer distances
Here a lit reticle that you can adjust intensity can be helpful. Not just a dot but the cross hair so you have something as a level for reference against the black background.
Some like green vs red but the intensity should have a very low end or it will blind you to the image.
So go out and play with various lit reticles and dot scopes till you find the function you want. THEN you can fill in with the bells and whistles on the scope tube. I think you will find that much of this stuff doesn't work in the dark so you prep before it gets dark... in which case, it wasn't that important for the dark cause you don't use it...
Jerry
Well Jerry, even this year I had a moment where I was wishing for more low light performance. the mule deer that I shot was right at 1/2 hour before sunrise - but I had watched it for something like 10 minutes before and was unable to take the shot because I was limited by optics. In fact, I wasn't even initially sure if the deer was a buck save for the fact that he looked very heavy. I was able to tell he was a buck with my Nikon Monarch 10x56's because i could get a glimpse of antler as he moved and the background changed. This was at 250 yards.
He moved in a manner that had field in the background and then I could see what was what and took the shot. Had he stayed by the brush and turned in I would have ended up passing the shot. I was using a VX6 2-12x42 with B&C reticle. With cloud cover and no snow 1 hour before sunrise looks pretty much like night - whereas 1/2 hour before sunrise is a completely different story.
So that is when I really started thinking about things. Of course ideally I would look at some scopes, but I can't exactly go into a store and grab these scopes, go outside in the evening and look at them side by side. A bit of it will have to be a leap of faith, although I know the S&B and Hensoldt will be top of the line optically, so I posted here to get some input.
ultimate_monkey
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- victoria BC
yaaa if a 15G SFP scope is your thing
i think ill passto the OP. i cant say much about the hensoldt, but i do own multiple SB scopes. and i can say they are by far the best scopes i have ever owned, used, looked threw, in any lighting condition. they are now all i am willing to run on any rifle other then a .22.... but if i had the $ even my .22 would wear a 3-12
Mystic Precision
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PM Sent.
Jerry
Jerry
bearkilr
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I have a S&B Zenith 3-12x50 Flashdot and a Zeiss Diavari 2.5-10x50 ill., and while not exactly the scopes you're looking at, I'd imagine optically they'd be a very similar comparison.
I don't think you'd need a 56mm objective, especially when your max power is 12. Mine are only used for hunting and informal range practice on steel plates up to 500 yards.
I'd give the optical edge to the S&B over the Zeiss. One thing, I have the FD7, which is illuminated, and I don't think it would be a good reticle for low light in its non illuminated version, A7, it's too fine. The Zeiss has a thicker center crosshair.
Both are great scopes but the Zenith has simply phenomenal clarity, there isn't another scope out there I've looked through that compares, and that includes Swarovski Z6's, Leica's, etc.
There is little to no flare at low light, something which is important when you're looking into dark shaded areas at last light, especially toward areas where the sun has set. Many scopes that appear clear at other times of the day fail this test miserably.
FYI, Wolverine Supplies has that Zenith on sale for $1700, a full $1000 less than anywhere else on the planet I can find. IMO, I don't think there's a better low light general purpose hunting scope available, provided weight isn't an issue. It's a pig.
I don't think you'd need a 56mm objective, especially when your max power is 12. Mine are only used for hunting and informal range practice on steel plates up to 500 yards.
I'd give the optical edge to the S&B over the Zeiss. One thing, I have the FD7, which is illuminated, and I don't think it would be a good reticle for low light in its non illuminated version, A7, it's too fine. The Zeiss has a thicker center crosshair.
Both are great scopes but the Zenith has simply phenomenal clarity, there isn't another scope out there I've looked through that compares, and that includes Swarovski Z6's, Leica's, etc.
There is little to no flare at low light, something which is important when you're looking into dark shaded areas at last light, especially toward areas where the sun has set. Many scopes that appear clear at other times of the day fail this test miserably.
FYI, Wolverine Supplies has that Zenith on sale for $1700, a full $1000 less than anywhere else on the planet I can find. IMO, I don't think there's a better low light general purpose hunting scope available, provided weight isn't an issue. It's a pig.
bearkilr - yeah, those Zeniths look very tempting, but the turrets aren't even numbered. How do you get them back to zero if you fiddle with them in the field? I also wrote an email to S&B asking about differences between coatings, lenses etc re Klassik and Zenith. I also asked about changes to coatings, lenses etc over th eyears. Their response was quick but basically useless.
One of the Optics dealers also has a great deal on the 2.5-10x50 Victory HT, but the mounting length is too short and it is a non-ASV model.
One of the Optics dealers also has a great deal on the 2.5-10x50 Victory HT, but the mounting length is too short and it is a non-ASV model.
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
Ya, no turrets or numbers. I'm not big on them, I guess for range use they'd be good, but I've had a couple of scopes over the years with them and found that I don't have the time to fiddle with them in a hunting situation. Then again, I don't generally take any shots on game over 400 yards so don't consider them necessary either. About all you can do on the Zenith is reset the Posicon system arrow so that when you adjust, you can always return to zero, but in reality this is more for switching the scope between rifles.
I'm not sure what the detailed differences are between the Klassik and Zenith, other than the obvious external, and I'm not sure if S&B would divulge that info freely, or if it matters. Last I heard all their glass was made in Hungary at a factory they now own. Some of the Klassiks are made there, but it would say so on the scope, and I don't think those ones are readily available in North America. You'll generally get more info from websites like opticstalk than you will from the manufacturer, if you filter out the nonsense......like on any website.
BigUglyMan
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- New Scotland
More power amigo. You need more power.
