Very good to excellent bore ....

D

davemccarthy707

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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...does not have minor pitting. A bore with pitting is fair at best. :stirthepot2:

http://www.nramuseum.org/gun-info-research/evaluating-firearms-condition.aspx
 
I would rate a moderately pitted bore as good if the rifling is good all the way through. Thus far only one person has accused me of having poor vision and overrating a bore.
 
desporterizer said:
I would rate a moderately pitted bore as good if the rifling is good all the way through. Thus far only one person has accused me of having poor vision and overrating a bore.
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This is one of those topics that will no doubt generate a fair bit of discussion among both sides of the equation as in buyer and seller.Even using established guidelines there will always be a lot of subjectivity involved as to what exactly fits which description.Personally,I'm pretty much in line with your take on the subject.
 
I would simply state something like: "slightly worn rifling, moderate pitting, not dark", rather than an NRA description that I later have to explain and defend. I've never been accused of over-rating a bore, but have received a few that were in my opinion.
 
I try to rate bores on a scale of 10. My 8 is most people's 9.5, I'll bet. At 9, it looks new but has some barely perceptible wear. If it's 8 or less, I try to subjectively describe why (i.e. fine pitting in grooves for half the length).

I've rec'd some real disappointments on EE purchases though.
 
When i plan to buy, I usually ask a series of questions no matter the description.
-Please describe as best as possible the muzzle crown
- describe how sharp the rifling edges are, and if there is variation from chamber to muzzle
- some pitting: please be more precise. Where? How much of it? Tiny specs or abyssal caves?
- etc

I have trouble with statements such as "good bore, considering the age". C'mon, if it's worn, it's worn!

I also accept that there is always a risk involved when buying long distance and unless the difference between what i receive and what was describe is huge, i will bite the bullet and deal with what i receive. I've had over the years been surprised a few times, sometimes in a good way. Plus, as mentioned sometimes bad bores can shoot; so i try to go to the range before passing final judgement :)
 
NRA guidelines are for new made rifles. Not really applicable to 75+ year old military guns. By their standards they are all poor......

You must use the antique grading, which pays less attention to bore. I like a nice bore but on a collectible gun, if it isn't pristine, I don't care. Not shooting it anyways.
 
This is an old chestnut which is waaay too subjective to ever be resolved. Bore/rifling wear can only be accurately determined by a gauge, unless there is a known round count after fitting a new barrel. Critical wear areas are the throat/leade which gets eroded by hot propellant gasses and the muzzle which is eroded by firing and cleaning rod/cord abrasion.

In the case of some MILSURPS, like the M1903 Springfield and the M1 Garand, you can get gauges which will give a reading on the degree of wear. A .30 cal muzzle wear plug-type gauge, which is graduated from .300 to .303, is useful thing to have for any .30 cal bore. You can also use an improvised gauge by inserting a reversed round into the muzzle. If the bullet disappears into the bore up to the case mouth it shows substantial wear. Any degree of clearance from the muzzle is better.
The Lee-Enfield armourer's gauges used to include various diameter plug gauges which could be passed thru the bore to get a reading on bore erosion.

Pitting is a whole other topic. The fewer and smaller the pits the better. A pitted bore will foul more quickly than an unpitted one, but they can still be acceptably accurate. The US Army inspection standards for .30 cal rifles say that barrels will be replaced if pits are as wide as the lands or grooves or greater than 3/8 inch long-that's a hell of a big pit!!! Fine pits were allowed if they did not affect the sharpness of the lands. Chamber pits were OK if they were not large enough to cause extraction difficulties.

There is also a separate discussion about what a "minty" bore looks/smells like and also what a "frosted" bore is (it always makes me think of peppermints and icing on a cake).;)
 
Bore condition is never subjective in my opinion. People make it subjective to help sell their junk. Is the rust on your 20 year old car subjective? Pitting is pitting. Shiny and sharp, is shiny and sharp. Muzzle wear is just that, as is chamber wear. Maybe I am being anal, but doing aircraft structural inspections for corrosion all the time will do that to a person.
 
You can be as anal as you want, but you still cannot subject old milsurps to the NRA type grading.

Use the antique section or ask for pics and any other questions.
 
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My personal pet peeve as a SELLER is when a buyer asks me questions already in the ad or is unrealistically picky. On more than one occasion, the questions got stupid enough that I told the buyer to go elsewhere. I don't need the headache of a buyer who will never be pleased no matter what they receive.

An example. I listed a BRAND NEW, in the white, still in the arsenal wax paper, barrel for sale in the EE (it was for an M48 Mauser). One guy wanted me to degrease it, get "excellent macro pictures of the bore" and e-mail them to him, asked me if I had a plug gauge for 8mm Mauser (I don't) and threatened he's return it if he found a single pit. I told the guy to pound sand and added him to my ignore list. If I say it's new, it's new. For $75, I'm not taking any extra pictures. Take it or leave it. Another guy wanted me to micrometer the thread diameter of an M95M barrel and report on the tip to ensure it really was an M95M barrel. Welcome to my ignore list. If I didn't personally take the barrel off an M95M (I said so in the ad) or was not 100% sure of what it was, I would not have listed it as an M95m barrel. For $50 shipped, I'm not going to answer stupid inquiries.

My margins on the guns and parts I sell are small. Very small. No, I'm not going to sell new-in-wrap Wolffe spring kits for less than half what Wolffe sells them for, so don;t ask. No, I'm not going to buy a plug gauge and a $300 macro lens to get a $250 rifle sale. If you ask, I'll just stop dialoguing with you and add you to the ignore list.

Frankly my feedback score speaks for itself and I take lots of photos and offer a fair description. If that doesn't suffice, mail order is not for you.
 
Claven2 said:
My personal pet peeve as a SELLER is when a buyer asks me questions already in the ad or is unrealistically picky. On more than one occasion, the questions got stupid enough that I told he buyer to go buy elsewhere. I don't need the headache of a buyer who will never be please no matter what they receive.

And example. I listed a BRAND NEW, still in the wax paper, barrel for sale in the EE (it was for an M48 Mauser). One guy wanted be to degrease it, get "excellent macro pictures of the bore" and e-mail them to him, asked me if I had a plug gauge for 8mm Mauser (I don't) and threatened he's return it if he found a single pit. I told the guy to pound sand and added him to my ignore list. If I say it's new, it's new. For $75, I'm not taking any extra pictures. Take it or leave it.

My margins on the guns and parts I sell are small. Very small. No, I'm not going to sell new-in-wrap Wolffe spring kits for less than half what Wolffe sells them for, so don;t ask. No, I'm not going to buy a plug gauge and a $300 macro lens to get a $250 rifle sale. If you ask, I'll just stop dialoguing with you and add you to the ignore list.

Frankly my feedback score speaks for itself and I take lots of photos and offer a fair description. If that doesn't suffice, mail order is not for you.
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I agree wholehartedly. However, when someone says excellent condition bore and the rifle shows up with about 50% rifling and pitting, then I have a problem. It has happened to me a nice few times. I don't leave negative because I should have asked questions. It has gotten so bad that I have given up buying from the EE. I now only buy from sponsors.

To reinforce your point I just sold a Mosin with a mint bore. I had a member ask me a number of belittling questions about the bore. I do not use the word Mint lightly. This bore was absolutely brand new. My EE rating should speak for itself.

I have a rifle here right now that a friend bought supposedly in excellent condition. The bore is 25-30% at best. Not pitted, it is really shiny but with very little rifling left. Makes me sad.
 
Andy said:
I would simply state something like: "slightly worn rifling, moderate pitting, not dark", rather than an NRA description that I later have to explain and defend. I've never been accused of over-rating a bore, but have received a few that were in my opinion.
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X2! I've received one rifle that was described as having a "bright and shiney" bore, only to find that the only shine was the oil coating the bore. The bore of that gun was so fouled with copper and powder fouling, that it was difficult to see the rifling.

To top it off, the chamber had a rust ring in 'er that made using anything but subsonic squib loads hard on extraction.

I now would prefer personal inspection of a given rifles' bore, especially from shmucks that say "I'm a blah-ba-blah collector".

Collector types are not generally gunsmith types.:eek:
 
SHELL SHUCKER said:
X2! I've received one rifle that was described as having a "bright and shiney" bore, only to find that the only shine was the oil coating the bore. The bore of that gun was so fouled with copper and powder fouling, that it was difficult to see the rifling.

To top it off, the chamber had a rust ring in 'er that made using anything but subsonic squib loads hard on extraction.

I now would prefer personal inspection of a given rifles' bore, especially from shmucks that say "I'm a blah-ba-blah collector".

Collector types are not generally gunsmith types.:eek:
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Just read the description of the rifle I just sold in the EE. It too has a super bright and shiny bore... with 30% rifling.
 
Agree with everything said here so far. After buying and selling well over 100 rifles, handguns and shotguns over the past 30 years (mostly milsurps), I've ended up sending back a few (but not many) milsurps where I felt the barrel simply was nowhere near what was described in the EE ad or through PMs. I like to collect, but only if it's in shootable condition, and many collectors/sellers here on CGN are either casual shooters (i.e. don't reload, don't compete, or don't shoot longer distances) or simply don't shoot at all. To be fair, I think the vast, vast majority of gun owners in this country have no idea how to grade a barrel or have a clue at the importance/role of the crown, the last 2" of the bore, or of the throat in terms of accuracy, so I don't take vague descriptions as trying to scam potential buyers. How many guys can recognize Metford type rifling that may look worn to the untrained eye given its rounded shape? As with everything, the onus is on the buyer to do their research (loads of good stuff right here n CGN) to get a fair sense of what the seller is telling you or showing in their photos. Caveat emptor!
 
I agree with whats been posted, I purchased a longbranch enfield that was described and being excellent bore, only to find a very dark bore. Decided not to leave negative feedback, but was very disappointed. Just recently I purchased a M38 mosin, from a sponsor who lists on the EE, Came in a below average M44 stock, (add did not mention it), bore was also dark. -one customer for life... Thank goodness for Tradeex, the one from them was way above expectations.
 
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