The last Japanese warrior...

I'm sorry that my spelling isnt good enough for you... Yes i'm an historian, yes I teach history, and yes , like some other gentlemen pointed out, english is not my first language. This being said sir, I'm sure that you can appreciate the fact that we (those who arent anglophones in the first place) can contribute to this forum in you language. I'm canadian born, raised in french, fluid in english (wich I learned while serving in the Canadian Forces and in college), and pretty decent in latin... What about you???

By the way, thanks to Rugdoc, Jfred :)

Apologia.Mea culpa. Dominus vobiscum. Pax Christi
 
Saving the Emperor probably spared the US a lot of insurgency I bet.

Everyone who fought them new it was going to be last man standing. To the Japanese tradition was everything and so was racial superiority. To them winning or to die trying were the only options and anyone who lived by a lesser code was not worthy of life. So they dominated, obliterated and destroyed everything they crossed paths with. The only thing that stopped them was when they finally saw that they would be annihilated.

They were living by a code that should have died out long before. The rest of us must remember what those ideologies brought into this world and denounce them aggressively whenever and wherever they may pop up. It's unfortunate that these things do still pop up, especially these days when we all share information so freely. Everyone knows but so few do anything. Darfur, Rwanda, etc, nothing seems to change, only the names of those involved and the places they happen. Lest we forget.

Didn't Lester Pearson and Trudeau pacify us?

Yet forty yrs later we get world sniping records (still sooooo proud):sniper:
 
to Soleman

Apology accepted. I understand your point of vue about bad spelling and beleive me, i'm trying to get better in english. I'll get there eventually!

thanks
 
I hate arguing WWII history with the cheerleaders on this site, but four things immediately come to mind here:

I personally know a Canadian veteran who was ordered to shoot surrendering Germans. The major told them he would personally shoot anyone bringing him a prisoner.

The Americans starved at least 1 million German POWs to death.

The allies bombed civilians in Essen and elsewhere but left the factories intact for the French to dismantle and take home after the war. How else did the German war effort continue despite the heavy bombing?

Japan was effectively already defeated in 1945 and the atom bombs were used to test them, and to demonstrate to the USSR who was going to be boss for the rest of the 20th century.

The Nazis and Japanese weren't the only bad guys at times.


Please provide your source for the statement that I bolded.
 
Other Losses: An Investigation into the Mass Deaths of German Prisoners at the Hands of the French and Americans after World War II [Paperback]
James Bacque (Author)

Bacque concluded that Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, as head of the American occupation of Germany in 1945, deliberately starved to death German prisoners of war in staggering numbers. Mr. Bacque charges that "the victims undoubtedly number over 800,000, almost certainly over 800,000 and quite likely over a million. Their deaths were knowingly caused by army officers who had sufficient resources to keep the prisoners alive."

Eisenhower's method, according to Mr. Bacque, was simple: he changed the designation of the prisoners from "Prisoners of War" (P.O.W.), required by the Geneva Convention to be fed the same rations as American G.I.'s, to "Disarmed Enemy Forces" (D.E.F.), which allowed him to cut their rations to starvation level. Mr. Bacque says the D.E.F. were also denied medical supplies and shelter. They died by the hundreds of thousands. Their deaths were covered up on Army records by listing them as "other looses" on charts showing weekly totals of prisoners on hand, numbers discharged and so forth.
 
When scholars do the necessary research, they will find Mr. Bacque's work to be worse than worthless. It is seriously—nay, spectacularly—flawed in its most fundamental aspects. […] Mr. Bacque is wrong on every major charge and nearly all his minor ones. Eisenhower was not a Hitler, he did not run death camps, German prisoners did not die by the hundreds of thousands, there was a severe food shortage in 1945,[5] there was nothing sinister or secret about the "disarmed enemy forces" designation or about the column "other losses." Mr. Bacque's "missing million" were old men and young boys in the Volkssturm (People's Militia) released without formal discharge and transfers of POWs to other allies control areas.

Ike and the Disappearing Atrocities., New York Times Book Review, February 24, 1991
 
Other Losses: An Investigation into the Mass Deaths of German Prisoners at the Hands of the French and Americans after World War II [Paperback]
James Bacque (Author)

Bacque concluded that Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, as head of the American occupation of Germany in 1945, deliberately starved to death German prisoners of war in staggering numbers. Mr. Bacque charges that "the victims undoubtedly number over 800,000, almost certainly over 800,000 and quite likely over a million. Their deaths were knowingly caused by army officers who had sufficient resources to keep the prisoners alive."

Eisenhower's method, according to Mr. Bacque, was simple: he changed the designation of the prisoners from "Prisoners of War" (P.O.W.), required by the Geneva Convention to be fed the same rations as American G.I.'s, to "Disarmed Enemy Forces" (D.E.F.), which allowed him to cut their rations to starvation level. Mr. Bacque says the D.E.F. were also denied medical supplies and shelter. They died by the hundreds of thousands. Their deaths were covered up on Army records by listing them as "other looses" on charts showing weekly totals of prisoners on hand, numbers discharged and so forth.


As I thought. I read the book, and studied his claims a bit. Book has been completely discredited, Did you know before this historical "work" was written, Bacque was a fiction writer? Not really up there with historical researchers, I would say, and from what I understand, his novels werent all that great either. Possibly why the change in his area of writing.


WRT to starving prisoners, all of Europe was starving, not just prisoners. The calorie intake of prisoners was on par with many civilians as well and displaced persons. Also, food was distributed to civilian populations first and then prisoners, or most likely, a fairly even distribution, but ensuring that the massive civilian and DP population did get some food. Not really a tough call in my books: Starving children or starving adult men. Pretty easy choice for me. In fact, brits in the UK were on rations, and many of them most likely ate just as poorly as those on continental Europe.

If you just scratch the surface a little, you will find the Bacque's work is, as his earlier writings, pure fiction.

Did Americans treat German prisoners poorly? Yes, many did. Was it policy? No.

Did German prisoners, die from neglect, starvation, abuse? Yes. So did civilians in their own homes. Post war Europe was in bad shape at that time. But to claim that a million German prisoners died at the hands of the western allies post war, is false. That number could arguably be attributed to the Russians but not the Americans.

I would suggest that before you make broad and sweeping accusations, you do a bit more reading and less copying and pasting of snippets and blurbs from a publisher's marketing campaign that was designed to sell books.
 
Other Losses: An Investigation into the Mass Deaths of German Prisoners at the Hands of the French and Americans after World War II [Paperback]
James Bacque (Author)

Bacque concluded that Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, as head of the American occupation of Germany in 1945, deliberately starved to death German prisoners of war in staggering numbers. Mr. Bacque charges that "the victims undoubtedly number over 800,000, almost certainly over 800,000 and quite likely over a million. Their deaths were knowingly caused by army officers who had sufficient resources to keep the prisoners alive."

Eisenhower's method, according to Mr. Bacque, was simple: he changed the designation of the prisoners from "Prisoners of War" (P.O.W.), required by the Geneva Convention to be fed the same rations as American G.I.'s, to "Disarmed Enemy Forces" (D.E.F.), which allowed him to cut their rations to starvation level. Mr. Bacque says the D.E.F. were also denied medical supplies and shelter. They died by the hundreds of thousands. Their deaths were covered up on Army records by listing them as "other looses" on charts showing weekly totals of prisoners on hand, numbers discharged and so forth.

As has been stated, these numbers are complete crap. You can read the same tripe on neo-Nazi websites.
 
I figure there are still a few of Japanese soldiers that got forgotten after the war,
and are just hangin' in there in the places that they used to occupy. If one understands
Bushido, and the way of the people back then, it makes a bit more sense.
 
Well you will find news about the Italian POW in Kenya, South Africa and India only in Italian books and documents about them: you must remeber we are in the Losing site, sad about it but happy because the victory of the Germans and the Japanish will be a tragedy for the world, but we prefere rember that after September the 8th 1943 we started the war with the Allies against the Nazis and the Fascists still present in the country. I agree with you the Italian POW in the germans concentration camps ( about 500.000) was not a happy vacation but also the 100.000 in the Russian hands had not a easy life. We sent an entire army in Russia of 240.000 men and we lost the 70% of them, also some of my parents. My granfather ( father of my father) was a machinegun crew in Greece, Albania, Invaded Jugoslavia, the guerilla war against the Tito Army in Montenegro and Kosovo. After the armistice He refused to enter in the Salò Repubblic so the Wermacht sent him in a Auswitz satellite campo since the liberation by the Russian Army. The Russian Army took him prisoner and sent him in a gulag over the Urals. He came back home in 1947, after 11 years in the army.

regards

Thanks, but what I was asking about was what is alleged to have happened to the Italian POWs in South Africa, Kenya or as you say, India that was so bad?
 
No wine, sh1tty red sauce, rice noodles...enough to take any Italian over the edge.:nest:


Well considering that the Commonwealth Forces were not ready to take care of a so big numbers of POW not enough food, medicine, some intereting deseases like Malaria and Colera, reports of tortur or violence against officers and soldiers that not collaborate, British Indigenous Colonial tropps was permited to steal all the dresses, shoes, and everitihing important from the soldiers that surrender afther the defeat in Ethiopia, no respect of the Officers, like requested on the Genevra Convention, and in fact the Duke of Aosta, our last Viceroy of Ethiopia and Somalia, died for a desease and the inmprisonment condition. After that from the end of 1942 the situation changed expecilly in the big camp of Zonderwater where 100.000 italians POW built a "colony" with Theaters, football fields, Theatrical Comanies, Orchestras ecc...ecc...

http://www.zonderwater.com/it/documenti/archivio-segreto-del-vaticano.html

I think you need to ask infos about the italian POW in Africa to the International Red Cross in Genevra.

regards
 
There is still some evidence of the Italian POWs in Kenya in the form of the paved roads that they built. There has been little maintenance of these roads since they were first built. The Brits wound up imprisoning some astonishingly large numbers of Italians based on relative strengths. Too bad Musso didn't keep them at home instead of embarking on his grandiose adventures in Africa and Greece. There are some pretty heart rending stories about Russian treatment of Italian POWs.
 
Well considering that the Commonwealth Forces were not ready to take care of a so big numbers of POW not enough food, medicine, some intereting deseases like Malaria and Colera, reports of tortur or violence against officers and soldiers that not collaborate, British Indigenous Colonial tropps was permited to steal all the dresses, shoes, and everitihing important from the soldiers that surrender afther the defeat in Ethiopia, no respect of the Officers, like requested on the Genevra Convention, and in fact the Duke of Aosta, our last Viceroy of Ethiopia and Somalia, died for a desease and the inmprisonment condition. After that from the end of 1942 the situation changed expecilly in the big camp of Zonderwater where 100.000 italians POW built a "colony" with Theaters, football fields, Theatrical Comanies, Orchestras ecc...ecc...

http://www.zonderwater.com/it/documenti/archivio-segreto-del-vaticano.html

I think you need to ask infos about the italian POW in Africa to the International Red Cross in Genevra.

regards

I don't know what "collaboration" would involve, but from what I read, POW's in South Africa had a pretty good time. They were allowed to work outside the camps if they wanted to, but didn't have to. After the way they treated the Ethiopians I'm sure the black troops were happy to kick them around a bit and steal their watches, and with 100,000 plus suddenly surrendering in the Western Desert in 1941 it's a wonder the system wasn't overwhelmed. I wonder how they even fed them all in Egypt in 1941/42.
 
Well considering that the Commonwealth Forces were not ready to take care of a so big numbers of POW not enough food, medicine, some intereting deseases like Malaria and Colera, reports of tortur or violence against officers and soldiers that not collaborate, British Indigenous Colonial tropps was permited to steal all the dresses, shoes, and everitihing important from the soldiers that surrender afther the defeat in Ethiopia, no respect of the Officers, like requested on the Genevra Convention, and in fact the Duke of Aosta, our last Viceroy of Ethiopia and Somalia, died for a desease and the inmprisonment condition. After that from the end of 1942 the situation changed expecilly in the big camp of Zonderwater where 100.000 italians POW built a "colony" with Theaters, football fields, Theatrical Comanies, Orchestras ecc...ecc...

http://www.zonderwater.com/it/documenti/archivio-segreto-del-vaticano.html

I think you need to ask infos about the italian POW in Africa to the International Red Cross in Genevra.

regards

I could care less about "asking infos about the Italian POW in Africa to the International Red Cross in Genevra." Too be honest, I don't even know what your directive is supposed to mean?

100,000 chicken hearted troops surrender at the sight of the British 8th Army, and someone's whining because "they took their shoes!" and "no 3 squares a day! Intolerable!"

I would suggest that what is infuriating/intolerable is the fact that the Italian's dragged our boy's into the armpit of the planet for a fight, all for the sake of reinitiating the Roman Empire, and when we got there, on mass they changed their minds! {thesea' boysa' meana' businessimo!}

I wonder what would have happened if 'ol Montie decided "they started it, we'll finish it!"...we'll never know because humane "quarter" was given. If the tide had turned, I suggest our boy's wouldn't have had the same respect.
 
Fact: Lt Onada did not kill 30 unarmed civilians. That is hog wash. In his official book he did take part in armed combat with US infantrymen, Local Philo.army, airforce service men and armed police and civilians. He was in command of 1 Corporal and 2 Private soldiers for many of his 29 yrs. Any combat casualties could have been by these soldiers, or the 70 Japanese soldiers who separated from Onada and garrisoned near by for 3 years too. I did see a videotape yrs ago of protesters on Lubang stating 9 farmers had been killed by Onada's men.
9 casualties, not 30, according to witnesses that live there.
Onada's last 2 soldiers were shot to death by local armed farmers.
Wikipedia is wrong, again.
On a side note the Philippine people were generally treated poorly by Japanese Fourteenth Army, and generally very well by the Americans.
 
If you look a little more carefully and add a little cultural insight, you'll find that Onoda obviously knew very well that the war was over. When some young Japanese guy visits him in the jungle and they talk for hours, when Onoda sees planes flying over and life going on for years with all the visible technological changes, no crash, boom, bang of war etc. Does anyone seriously believe he thought the war was still going on? No, but he probably had PTSD in a big way and was working out his own problems. Lots of guys end up living "in the bush" for their own reasons.

Mr. Onoda stage-managed his "surrender" quite well and of course he was listening to the Japanese radio broadcasts for years (on radios he stole from the Filipino farmers nearby) and heard the talk about surviving veterans on islands etc., including himself! Why did that young Japanese guy come looking for him? Because he'd heard discussion of him in the media and like Onoda, was looking for his five minutes of fame as the "man that found Onoda"! Mr. Onoda knew his home audience well, he knew how to present himself as the "last man standing" and all the glory that would associate with that role. Don't kid yourselves; as he said himself, "I am highly competitive".

So, he lived the life he wanted to for as long as he did, living off the Filipinos and killing them when necessary, and then made his grand return. You can see from his "comfort women" screed that I posted about that he remained an unregenerate right winger and apologist for aggression. Apparently he never watched any of those "Japanese soldier confession" videos on Youtube. Have a look yourselves if you want to hear it straight from the horse's mouth. I remember seeing one where the old guy admitted that when they wanted some fresh meat they would just take a few trucks to the nearest town and grab the women they wanted straight off the street. It didn't matter whether they left their kids screaming on the spot or not. Drag them onto the trucks and drive away.

Keep looking for your hero folks. There's plenty of other choices out there.
 
If you look a little more carefully and add a little cultural insight, you'll find that Onoda obviously knew very well that the war was over. When some young Japanese guy visits him in the jungle and they talk for hours, when Onoda sees planes flying over and life going on for years with all the visible technological changes, no crash, boom, bang of war etc. Does anyone seriously believe he thought the war was still going on? No, but he probably had PTSD in a big way and was working out his own problems. Lots of guys end up living "in the bush" for their own reasons.

Mr. Onoda stage-managed his "surrender" quite well and of course he was listening to the Japanese radio broadcasts for years (on radios he stole from the Filipino farmers nearby) and heard the talk about surviving veterans on islands etc., including himself! Why did that young Japanese guy come looking for him? Because he'd heard discussion of him in the media and like Onoda, was looking for his five minutes of fame as the "man that found Onoda"! Mr. Onoda knew his home audience well, he knew how to present himself as the "last man standing" and all the glory that would associate with that role. Don't kid yourselves; as he said himself, "I am highly competitive".

So, he lived the life he wanted to for as long as he did, living off the Filipinos and killing them when necessary, and then made his grand return. You can see from his "comfort women" screed that I posted about that he remained an unregenerate right winger and apologist for aggression. Apparently he never watched any of those "Japanese soldier confession" videos on Youtube. Have a look yourselves if you want to hear it straight from the horse's mouth. I remember seeing one where the old guy admitted that when they wanted some fresh meat they would just take a few trucks to the nearest town and grab the women they wanted straight off the street. It didn't matter whether they left their kids screaming on the spot or not. Drag them onto the trucks and drive away.

Keep looking for your hero folks. There's plenty of other choices out there.

Having read the books he is referring to, and having lived in Japan for 2 years, I think RRCo has a good grasp of it. Many Japanese I met were embarrassed to talk about him.
 
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