How to get more people involved in Competitive Shooting

SG, the Savage MkII FV was $280 or thereabouts and came with weaver bases. Just helped a relative work on the sporter version which is even cheaper then the heavy barrel I have. No difference in performance.

Put on a set of Burris sig ZEE rings $75. Shim and have at it.

If you want a pic rail, that EGW would be around $55. Tacpro cheek rest is $49. Throw in some shipping and tax and you are still looking $500'ish. And this is what I shoot to 350yds

If I had another $2 to 2500, I would build a couple more FTR rifles :)

I would use the same scope, bipod, rear bag as your FTR rig. may as well learn how all that gear works.

And more time with your scope builds confidence in how it tracks... or not. You MUST trust your scope or F class is going to be frustrating.

Dirt cheap practising rig that can last for the next 25yrs of shooting

Jerry
 
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Mystic Precision said:
SG, the Savage MkII FV was $280 or thereabouts and came with weaver bases. Just helped a relative work on the sporter version which is even cheaper then the heavy barrel I have. No difference in performance.

Put on a set of Burris sig ZEE rings $75. Shim and have at it.

If you want a pic rail, that EGW would be around $55. Tacpro cheek rest is $49. Throw in some shipping and tax and you are still looking $500'ish.
Click to expand...

I just googled around, and had priced your build as pictured as $250 for the rifle, $75 for the rings, $100 for a MOA base, $120 for the bibod, $20 for the bipod swivel lock, $100 for the cheek rest and $1,200 for the scope. Add in a couple $100's for shipping and 13% for tax and it comes in around $2,300. Like I said, cocktail napkin math and I had made a few assumptions. Looks like I'm a tad high on a few of the prices for parts too. The biggest part of the cost is the scope, and I think that's problematic for most new shooters.

I would use the same scope, bipod, rear bag as your FTR rig. may as well learn how all that gear works.

And more time with your scope builds confidence in how it tracks... or not. You MUST trust your scope or F class is going to be frustrating.
Click to expand...

Agreed. One of the first things taught is scope tracking and verification in Bob's course. But there's a hell of a lot of sticker shock for new shooters in his course, when they realize that their 3-9x40 or 6-18x50 brand name, mid range scope wont cut it, either because it lacks easily adjustable turrets or has a repeatability issue. Even the well priced Elite 3200 10x40 has a repeatability bug.

This is why I was suggesting a fixed configuration F-class. Easy to budget for, level playing field (all shooters use the same gear, have the same handicap) and being rimfire is economical to shoot; and with scaled targets can be shot on most ranges. Does that approach make sense?
 
If you wanted to have a good quality scope that tracked and had reasonable mag, there are plenty of scopes from the 80's and 90's that work. Bausch and Lomb Elite 4000 to 4200 series scopes. I competed with the 6-24 AO with mildot reticle for a few years. It worked great and likely around $250 to 300 used now. Elevation is limited but you can shim for the distances you are competing at.

Older Japanese made Tasco World Class 36X are fantastic given their era. I bet you can find them for around $100 at a gunshow. Weaver 24X and 36X also from that era are maybe $200 - served Benchrest Shooters well for decades.

If you want new, the Sightron SII Big Sky 36X is well under $1000. Not to fussy on high mag but want a variable, SII Big Sky 6.5-20X50 - apparent mag is closer to 24X - also well under $1000. Quality does have a min cost and if you want a good NEW scope, then that investment needs to be made.

As an off season trainer, using your normal comp scope means one less item to buy and you get more practise with it. I am assuming, the shooter wants to compete in normal F Class and has the gear to do it. Or heading in that direction.

If they just want to learn with a rimfire then move up, I would still suggest they make the investment in a quality competition scope cause that saves them money in the long run. There are lots of ways to get enough accuracy from a rifle to be competitive without spending a fortune. There is no way to "cheap" on a scope and have it work. There is an entry price point for new and there is no way around it.

However, listed several options that will save a ton of cash up front. Be wary of anything new in the $300 to 600 price range. A lot of this stuff simply will not work for the demands of F class.

I don't think there will be much interest in trying to establish a rimfire F class format. If it was attempted, quickly you would find top end rimfire gear showing up shooting $25/box ammo. Now we are getting equally expensive to centerfire F class with no gain to the sport.

if you limited to 1 "rifle" format, you are still asking a shooter to make an investment which can be applied to get well into centerfire F class. The only real savings is in the ammo but only if they come out and shoot.

For rimfire F class practise, especially at shorter distances, there are so many bolt rifles sitting in closets now that can work. Helped a guy out with a cooey bolt rifle ( his Dad's rifle circa 60's ). Shot wonderfully with the SK ammo I was using. Ideal for a practise rig? Not a hope, but it is functional and would let the user get trigger time. I doubt he had $150 invested on that rifle WITH optics (yes, left ALOT to be desired but it worked - kind of).

If shooters want to learn and practise with a rimfire, odds are they already have all the gear they need now. Make the investment in better ammo and go have some fun. Learn the left and right bit. Learn the sight picture, breathing, follow through (modify the stock as needed to get comfy). Learn the cadence and scoring - shoot with 2 other buddies and learn Bisley style shooting (that is a gong show the first time you try it). Learn to move that scope - which quickly will lead to changing the scope. Learn to read that mirage and flags.

If the rifles can only hold 1" at 50m and 2" at 100m, then make that size the 5 ring and scale everything else accordingly. It doesn't have to be a perfect match. It just has to let the shooter simulate what they will experience in F class.

Repetition builds confidence and skill. It will also help with endurance while in the prone position - not everyone can lie down for long periods of time.

For those that want to try, just get out there and do it. The journey will not finish over night so the more time and practise invested, the "shorter" the final steps will be.

Jerry
 
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I'm the guy that shoots a Savage 308 with a 50X Sightron and load my own ammo.
I'm also the guy that's just about ready to give it up, there's only so much you can do
at a 300 yard range.

I shot at Connaught 3 times.
Now I will only shoot in Stittsville, restricted to 300 yards.........why you might ask....?

Simple, I did not feel up to "standards". The few that made me feel welcomed, are people I met at the range in Stittsville,
the ones that originally invited me to try it out, you know who you are.......

Now, I politely refuse any further invites.

Some might say "man up and go for it".........."suck it up".......maybe they are right.

I shoot for FUN, I like the friendly atmosphere and the comradery.
I appreciate any and all comments that will help me become a better shooter, jokes, sarcasm,
and even the odd idiotic remark.

I dont need to be told, over and over, AD NAUSEAM, that my shooting equipment is not up to the "member's"
standard, too bad, that's all can afford.
I can only listen to "throw that thing in the garbage" so many times, after a while it starts getting old.

Maybe, just maybe, is there a possibility that members could "suck it up" and "man-up" ?????????
I thought I had a thick skin..............you guys proved me wrong.
 
Mystic Precision said:
If you wanted to have a good quality scope that tracked and had reasonable mag, there are plenty of scopes from the 80's and 90's that work. Bausch and Lomb Elite 4000 to 4200 series scopes. I competed with the 6-24 AO with mildot reticle for a few years. It worked great and likely around $250 to 300 used now. Elevation is limited but you can shim for the distances you are competing at.

Older Japanese made Tasco World Class 36X are fantastic given their era. I bet you can find them for around $100 at a gunshow. Weaver 24X and 36X also from that era are maybe $200 - served Benchrest Shooters well for decades.

If you want new, the Sightron SII Big Sky 36X is well under $1000. Not to fussy on high mag but want a variable, SII Big Sky 6.5-20X50 - apparent mag is closer to 24X - also well under $1000. Quality does have a min cost and if you want a good NEW scope, then that investment needs to be made.

As an off season trainer, using your normal comp scope means one less item to buy and you get more practise with it. I am assuming, the shooter wants to compete in normal F Class and has the gear to do it. Or heading in that direction.

If they just want to learn with a rimfire then move up, I would still suggest they make the investment in a quality competition scope cause that saves them money in the long run. There are lots of ways to get enough accuracy from a rifle to be competitive without spending a fortune. There is no way to "cheap" on a scope and have it work. There is an entry price point for new and there is no way around it.

However, listed several options that will save a ton of cash up front. Be wary of anything new in the $300 to 600 price range. A lot of this stuff simply will not work for the demands of F class.

I don't think there will be much interest in trying to establish a rimfire F class format. If it was attempted, quickly you would find top end rimfire gear showing up shooting $25/box ammo. Now we are getting equally expensive to centerfire F class with no gain to the sport.

if you limited to 1 "rifle" format, you are still asking a shooter to make an investment which can be applied to get well into centerfire F class. The only real savings is in the ammo but only if they come out and shoot.

For rimfire F class practise, especially at shorter distances, there are so many bolt rifles sitting in closets now that can work. Helped a guy out with a cooey bolt rifle ( his Dad's rifle circa 60's ). Shot wonderfully with the SK ammo I was using. Ideal for a practise rig? Not a hope, but it is functional and would let the user get trigger time. I doubt he had $150 invested on that rifle WITH optics (yes, left ALOT to be desired but it worked - kind of).

If shooters want to learn and practise with a rimfire, odds are they already have all the gear they need now. Make the investment in better ammo and go have some fun. Learn the left and right bit. Learn the sight picture, breathing, follow through (modify the stock as needed to get comfy). Learn the cadence and scoring - shoot with 2 other buddies and learn Bisley style shooting (that is a gong show the first time you try it). Learn to move that scope - which quickly will lead to changing the scope. Learn to read that mirage and flags.

If the rifles can only hold 1" at 50m and 2" at 100m, then make that size the 5 ring and scale everything else accordingly. It doesn't have to be a perfect match. It just has to let the shooter simulate what they will experience in F class.

Repetition builds confidence and skill. It will also help with endurance while in the prone position - not everyone can lie down for long periods of time.

For those that want to try, just get out there and do it. The journey will not finish over night so the more time and practise invested, the "shorter" the final steps will be.

Jerry
Click to expand...

With all due respect Jerry,

You may want to add "and a good dose of attitude adjustment from the old boys club".
Bring on the flames.........
 
Cet,

i dont know you, or your rifle and dont give a sh...If you want to come to Connaught again this spring, on a practice day, i'll tell you everything i know and were gonna have a blast, disregard of equipment. Also, seem there will be a factory class at the Eastern regional this year !

pm me if you are interested, you are more than welcome to join us.
 
Cet,
Not questioning the way "you felt" as they are your feelings...
Do not consider this a FLAME as I do not.
However to your comments....

"I dont need to be told, over and over, AD NAUSEAM, that my shooting equipment is not up to the "member's"
standard, too bad, that's all can afford.
I can only listen to "throw that thing in the garbage" so many times, after a while it starts getting old."


I've spent sometime on the range there and have "never" heard or overheard anyone make those comments.
I have however heard shooters share opinions on how to upgrade and improve existing gear and generally "when asked"
not force fed.
Just needed to comment, as your statement seems to paint "all" with the same brush and IMHO unfair to those that do try and help .
I truly believe MOST will go out of their way to welcome newer shooters and try and help out where and when they can.
Regards
Gord O
PS .I do agree that in every group an occasional "mouth" shows up and confirms their ignorance by speaking,but have learned not to judge a group
by 1 individual.
 
WG300 said:
Cet,

i dont know you, or your rifle and dont give a sh...If you want to come to Connaught again this spring, on a practice day, i'll tell you everything i know and were gonna have a blast, disregard of equipment. Also, seem there will be a factory class at the Eastern regional this year !

pm me if you are interested, you are more than welcome to join us.
Click to expand...

ONT0001 said:
Cet,
Not questioning the way "you felt" as they are your feelings...
Do not consider this a FLAME as I do not.
However to your comments....

"I dont need to be told, over and over, AD NAUSEAM, that my shooting equipment is not up to the "member's"
standard, too bad, that's all can afford.
I can only listen to "throw that thing in the garbage" so many times, after a while it starts getting old."


I've spent sometime on the range there and have "never" heard or overheard anyone make those comments.
I have however heard shooters share opinions on how to upgrade and improve existing gear and generally "when asked"
not force fed.
Just needed to comment, as your statement seems to paint "all" with the same brush and IMHO unfair to those that do try and help .
I truly believe MOST will go out of their way to welcome newer shooters and try and help out where and when they can.
Regards
Gord O
PS .I do agree that in every group an occasional "mouth" shows up and confirms their ignorance by speaking,but have learned not to judge a group
by 1 individual.
Click to expand...


First, let me thank you for the invitation WG300, did I mention I enjoy a pun as well ? "i'll tell you everything i know and were gonna have a blast".
Very friendly and welcoming comment WG300, thank you. I will consider it since it seems sincere to me.

ONT0001:
You're right, of course. I may have judged too quickly.

My first shoot was at one of those open invitations to attract members, I had a great time, that's why I decided to go back.
During my second/third visit, things changed a bit. People were friendly and helpfull, but dismissive.
Everyone asked offered to help, and offered very friendly advice:- "get rid of that garbage for starters, then you should
get a new scope with XX rings and mount them XX way..........etc."
Fair enough, I dont have the greatest equipment and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'll ask another person.

Everyone asked offered to help, and offered very friendly advice:- "Call XX and get a new barrel, those Savage factory barrels are not accurate...............etc".
Again, fair enough. Factory stuff is not the greatest, I'll admit that. I'll ask someone else.

Everyone asked offered to help, and offered very friendly advice:- "Well, not sure I can really help, you should start by helping yourself and getting some descent equipment.................etc".
Yes.....I should. First I'll have to find the funds to do that, maybe next year, maybe....

I hate to say this guys, the members I met at Connaught might be willing to help, but not at the basic/entry level I needed.
I did not dismiss anyone, I did not insult anyone, HELL....I would have shouted " sir, YES, sir" if that was asked of me.
A man can only ask so many ways, when the answers come wrapped in dismissive comments, one gives up asking.
I felt alone, unguided and set-up to fail or at the very least make an ass of myself, which in itself I can accept as long as it DOES NOT involve safety.

I was looking to join a shooting club, not guess at expectations................

Sorry for being long winded, this has bothered me for a while now.
I'm sure most regulars at Stittsville ranges know I'm not easily offended
and have a thick skin.
NOTE: I have not been to Stittsville for several months, I'm recovering from a hip replacement
and will probably have a knee replacement in the very near future........having a cluster f##k of a good time.

Bruno Ottonello
AKA "CET" on CGN
 
CET,
The fact is some clubs can be "clicky" and with your 3 trips to Connaught you just haven't figured out what click to go with. Now if you ask 10 people what the best action/scope/barrel/trigger/stock is, you are going to get 11 different answers. So you don't have top of the line equipment, so what. Very few new shooters show up with top of the line equipment their first time out and many of them take years to get their equipment just the way they want it. Shoot what you have, upgrade as you see fit and as funds become available, and have fun. Just remember you are not there to please them, you are there to please yourself but hitting targets at long range. When you feel that your equipment is the limiting factor, then upgrade. Until then, burn out the barrel that you have learning to read the wind and breaking perfect shots every time.
 
Bruno,

If you're the guy I'm thinking of we've spent a lot of time talking out at Stittsville, and you helped me out a lot when I first started shooting and reloading. The core group of F-Class shooters at NCRRA are the same guys you'll know from Stittsville (Paul, Mark, Butch, Barry, etc.) so I'm quite surprised and more than a little saddened to hear about your experience at Connaught, especially considering how different it was from mine. I hope you'd be willing to give us another try in the spring; you won't regret it. If there's anything I can do to help send me a PM. All the best in your recovery!

Scott
 
Cet, i am sincere and i'm convince that equipment should not be areason to back of the range. Of course, there is a minimum, and with what you have specified, well, you got it !!! so lets have fun. I wont hide, i will take more time on a practice day than on a competition weekend. I take this sport seriously on competition day,,,,but not on practice )))))

feel free to contact me by pm when snow is off, it will be a pleasure.

ONT001, i can only agree with your statement, there is an awsome bunch of guys at connaught, even being a frenchie did not create any bad situations AT ALL.
 
FTRRookie said:
Bruno,

If you're the guy I'm thinking of we've spent a lot of time talking out at Stittsville, and you helped me out a lot when I first started shooting and reloading. The core group of F-Class shooters at NCRRA are the same guys you'll know from Stittsville (Paul, Mark, Butch, Barry, etc.) so I'm quite surprised and more than a little saddened to hear about your experience at Connaught, especially considering how different it was from mine. I hope you'd be willing to give us another try in the spring; you won't regret it. If there's anything I can do to help send me a PM. All the best in your recovery!

Scott
Click to expand...

Yes Scott, I'm the guy. I know everyone you mentioned, great bunch of guys and all straight shooters.

I'm recovering well, thanks for asking. Just have to kick this morphine habit.........but damn, it's good stuff...

Cheers
Bruno
 
WG300 said:
Cet, i am sincere and i'm convince that equipment should not be areason to back of the range. Of course, there is a minimum, and with what you have specified, well, you got it !!! so lets have fun. I wont hide, i will take more time on a practice day than on a competition weekend. I take this sport seriously on competition day,,,,but not on practice )))))

feel free to contact me by pm when snow is off, it will be a pleasure.

ONT001, i can only agree with your statement, there is an awsome bunch of guys at connaught, even being a frenchie did not create any bad situations AT ALL.
Click to expand...

Looking forward to meeting you WG300, thanks for the invite.

Mercie monsieur.
Bruno
 
I can`t speak for Connaught but at the other ranges . ie Borden and Cedar springs . The guys are and were very helpful .
Ont0001 is the whole reason I started shooting . He let a archery/blackpowder hunter try his rifle one day at our home range . After shooting one group he gave me pointers on how to shoot better . Then said try it again . I was hooked!!!
When I purchased my first rifle a 700 in .243 used . He did not put down my selection . He offered advice on how to make it and me perform better without additional cost .
I have learned from his example and try to encourage all new shooters . When I`m at a range I will let anybody try my rifle . They may get the fever like me . :)
I know it is a bit of a drive for some . But the shoots run by Maynard at Cedar Springs are worth it for new and older shooters .
 
doemaster, stop you're making me blush........:redface:

This year at Cedar Springs we will be using our new electronic target system from Silver Mountain Targets. You will need some type of display to see the hits. ie Sony e-reader, iPhone, smart phone, iPad, etc.
 
Tom that sucks for me . I don`t use those new fangled kind of things . :)
As for the blushing . It is the truth . Watched you get down beside that gentleman who shot your challenge and coached him . :)
 
A Sony e-reader is about $79 on sale. If you don't have one I am sure someone will loan you one for the line. Cedar Springs is the ORA test bed for these targets and they will get up to Borden a few times this year to test at long range.
 
cet said:
With all due respect Jerry,

You may want to add "and a good dose of attitude adjustment from the old boys club".
Bring on the flames.........
Click to expand...

Regardless of the activity, there will be those you don't get alone with. Spend a bit of time and you will quickly find those that you will.

I am sure you realise that some of those offering you help and support are top Canadian shooters - hell, call them top International shooters. Stick with them and you will learn from the best.

We all have personal tastes and sometime it comes across as the only solution. Look at the scores. No one and nothing dominates this sport. Some stuff works better. Some stuff works as well. Don't get hung up on the money means success.

Practise leads to success.

I am one of the biggest Savage fans. Much to the chagrin of some team mates BUT it works. Are there things in a factory savage that need to be attended to, you bet but once set up, the scores are dictated by your wind reading skills.

If you come out and try a few events and practise sessions, you will find that the core is very open and accommodating. however, avoid big matches to try and gain basic help. Most shooters are going to be pretty focused.

Also, consider that from the view point of an experienced long time competitor, they may be able to diagnose issues very fast and be very blunt about their opinions. Some don't like that and may consider it an affront. Both parties leave unhappy.

I have no idea what you have experienced or discuss. All I know is that I have helped many in LR shooting locally. My process is not the end all but it will lead to success. A very few choose to question each and every step. That gets tiring very fast and we usually part ways.

Listen and learn from a wide range and you will see things that agree and much that conflicts. Ultimately, its holes in paper that matter and follow whatever process you deem best for you.

Enjoy 2014...

Jerry
 
I think I'll chime in after 14 pages of reading.

I like many am interested in long range shooting and joining a club to support and grow the sport.

So I emailed my local PRA and explained what calibers I shoot and the fact that I'm very interested in learning the craft of long range shooting and being an active member of the club.

The response was less then "inviting". I was basically told that my equipment was not good enough to shoot long range and that was that! Funny thing was I never specifically mentioned my rifles, only the calibers.

So I again contacted them and mentioned that yes I shoot 303 British but my 303 is a "regulated by Alfred George Parker" lee enfield and it was used successfully for 1000 DCRA type matches many years ago. I then went on to say if it worked then hopefully it should do the job now.

Then I get a response of " please do come out in spring"

So what I made of this is: If you don't shoot 308 then you'll never hit a long range target. Worst part is what if I didn't know any better and believed that?

The joke is I'm prepared to buy a dedicated 308 caliber target rifle if I want to compete in the near future. What's one more rifle to add to the pile?:)

Infact I have 2 more oldschool target rifles (in 6.5x55 which is a great cartridge) which would be very well suited to 300-600 yard shooting. I also have a 222 rem which was the choice of BR shooters for many years.

So basically I'm kinda turned off. Im not even sure if I'm going to check it out at this point. I can shoot at home any time I want on my own land.

Every time I go to a range or gunshow I look around and I see guys twice my age making up 75% of the crowd and it's kinda sad.

If shooting clubs and competitive shooters don't start trying to get younger shooters like me to join there will be less clubs and way less target shooting in the future.

I still don't even know what the difference us between F class and whatever class. I never even knew there was a Provincial Rifle Association in any province let alone my province. Before contacting my local PRA I asked like 10 guys I know who are serious shooters and none of them knew we had one either.

Just my experience and observations as someone who is trying to get into your sport.
 
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