Rem 700, Win Mod 70 - Not what they used to be?

GreenCanada

GreenCanada

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I'm a little nervous wading into a new forum with a discussion surrounding some classic rifles, but what better way to get my feet wet!

This is my quandary:

I'm looking at purchasing a new rifle, because I'm not confident enough in my own examination of used rifles, yet. I haven't had enough long term experience with degrading parts or things to look for to avoid buying a 'lemon'. Like buying a new car right, buyer beware.

I initially was set on purchasing a Rem 700, after doing an absurd amount of research and speaking with many people much more knowledgeable and experienced than myself. But what I kept hearing was "Rem 700's are/used to be great, but they have had quite a few quality control issues over the past say 5 years". Darnit, now I started second guessing myself and began doing the same indepth research on the Mod 70 from Winchester... didn't seem to have the same kind of issues, but I still kept seeing that the quality control has been anything but great. Enter the Sako A7...

I should mention at this point that I'm looking primarily at a synthetic stock, with either a blued or stainless barrel, likely chambered in 30-06 (white tail, mule, elk, and moose)... though I am open to comments on chambering. I take exceptional care of my gear, so I'm not completely worried about the barrel rusting prematurely.

Where was I... Oh right, Sako A7. I started looking through different makes/models similar to the Mod 70 Mountain, or Rem 700 (that wasn't the cheap feeling SPS), and came to Tikka. I felt I wanted a sturdier rifle and action with a bit more fit and finish. I shouldered all of the models I have mentioned, including a Tikka. Basically, the Tikka didn't sit right for me and I have now been focused on the Sako A7. Partially because I figure maybe I'll just buy an older Rem 700 or Mod 70 in a few years, when I'm more comfortable buying something used?

I'm not exactly sure what I'm asking of whoever may read and comment on this post, but I guess I would like to direct it towards your recent (say less than a year) experience with the quality of Rem 700's, Win Mod 70's, and Sako A7's. I have a pretty open mind and would like to find a rifle and manufacturer that I can have confidence in, while not having to worry as much that I'll be needing to fight with warranty/quality issues right out of the box.

Ideally, I'd like to work with a budget of 12-1300 bucks all in; rifle, scope, rings, base. I do realize the Sako A7 fits the bill price wise, but your thoughts?

Don't be shy, I'm a big boy and if you think I'm wrong or should be looking at different calibres, models, etc I'm all ears!

:cheers:

P.s. I'm in Calgary and would love to stay away from the big box stores if at all possible... just saying ;)
 
Quality concerns are a issue with every maker. The A7 and T3 from Tikka are attempts by Sako and their junior company Tikka to do exactly what Remington did in coming out with the Model 700 in 1962. That is take production, and manufacturing shortcuts to increase corporate profits. The Model 700 wasnt built to the craftsmanship of a pre 64 Model 70, but the price difference caused Winchester to redesign the Model 70 to compete. The model 700 Sps are not the quality of a 20 year old 700 BDL, the Sako A7 is no Sako AV, and the T3 is no earlier model Tikka when it comes to craftsmanship, attention to detail, materials, or quality control. Perhaps one exception the new FN built Model 70 are supposed to be better than any model 70 since the pre 64. CNC machining helps make up for some of the design lacks.

It all comes down to comfort. If you dont feel comfortable buying a used item from the EE, dont. Be comfortable, go to your local gun store, shoulder some guns, get a impression on how they feel, quality of materials and workmanship, price of gun and ammo. Personally i think you would be well served by any of the three you have named. Along with the T3, TC Venture, and Weatherby/Howa. Avoid some of the lower end entry bolt guns...IMO especially the Mossberg and Savage Axis. Other peoples mileage may vary.

For calibers i have said to people before that if i was to be limited to one gun...the horror...i would choose a good bolt gun in 30-06, 7 mm Rem Mag, or 300 Win mag. Spend as much on the optics as you do on the rifle....your done. Shudder to think.
If typical game was Deer add some smaller calibers maybe 308 or 270, if it was larger like Moose lean to the 300 Win. See where the 30-06 sits, right in the middle. How does that saying go ....the only way you can improve on a 30-06 is clean it every once in a while.
 
The .30/06 is my favorite cartridge for a reason. If there is a big game cartridge more successful and versatile, I don't know what it is. If you shoot nothing but factory ammo, the '06 comes with a bullet style, weight, and velocity that is appropriate to your needs. Now I've said more than once on these threads that the key to any cartridge's versatility is through handloading, and that's true. The '06 is one of the easiest cartridges to load for, whether its a cast lead bullet spit out by a pinch of pistol powder, a mid weight jacketed bullet loaded to 3000 fps will reach game way out across the open spaces typical to prairie, mountains and muskeg. A 240 gr Woodleigh loaded to the max will take game normally reserved for larger cartridges. If you can only own one, the .30/06 is the one to own.

The FN produced M-70 is an excellent rifle if my .458 is a typical example. The finish is a bit weak in my opinion, but I live in a pretty harsh climate. My guns get lots of exposure to the salt air of a marine environment, but the situation can be easily resolved with an application of GunKote or CeraKote. The M-700 Remington remains an excellent choice, although the number of individual models is a bit over whelming. A word on synthetic stocks though, not all synthetic stocks are created equally. A quality fiberglass stock is not the same animal as the plastic hollow stocks that are attached to some barreled actions. A stock needs to be stiff to fulfill its job, so a cheap plastic stock is poor economy.

I like SAKO rifles, though my experience is with the older L series. The quality is certainly there, and the price reflects that. Provided you stay clear of the cheap plastic stocks, there is really no wrong answer, as each rifle has its strengths and weaknesses. Itys more a point of getting used to the intricacies of your particular rifle, than of making a poor choice.
 
While starting out as a quality or quality control issue, the author digressed to fit and feel and then allowed caliber to enter the fray.
There are many other thread and posts addressing these issues.
In the end your research may answer your concerns but most will come down to the level of personal acceptance.
 
The model 70's being made now are the best since Winchester all but sold out their reputation in 1964. As for the 700's i believe quality concerns are largely overblown. The BDL and CDL versions have always been good rifles. I don't think the SPS versions are a good basis to judge the rifles on.
 
I personally think the "quality control" issues are ridiculously overblown. I am yet to see a single QC issue in all of the rifles I have owned and have tuned and set up for friends and family, this number includes over 45 Remington 700's in various configurations/years made/calibers. I have very limited exposure to Model 70's, but what I have had is very positive. The reason the number of Remingtons I have dealt with is so high is due to when somebody says to me: "I would like you to help me pick a good all around rifle that can shoot some targets, hunt once in a while, and is accurate and reliable" I set them up with a 700 and an optic of their choice, find ammo it likes that suits their needs and away they go and are happy with it.

I don't think you can go wrong with either pick honestly, the cartridge (although one I personally do not like) is a time tested and true example of a North American capable cartridge. I wouldn't hesitate to buy used from a seller with a decent trader rating personally either, might get an excellent deal for yourself. I would also look towards the .308 or maybe even a 300WM as opposed to the 30-06. With the 300WM, you can choose a lighter load when you want it, but still get all the bang when you need it. 30-06 to me, just floats in the middle somewhere between the two.... again, that's my opinion of the 30-06, and I am a little bias.

Good luck with your search!
 
I have no idea about the 700 but I have a FN Winchester purchased and made about a year and a half ago: FW Win 70 in 30-06 and I can tell you it is a fantastic rifle and particularly for the price. Fit and finish is excellent. Shoots under MOA.

I wish the trigger was a pound lighter just because my other rifles are and it takes me a range trip to 'train' myself to a slightly heavier trigger on it but it is a crisp trigger and breaks really nicely and probably is just right on for a hunting rifle.

I honestly would not be concerned about quality getting one new.

Now all of this said I think you can encounter a good used deal in a Sako AV of some sort if you wait around.
 
the new fn produced model 70's are the best bang for your buck as far as fit, finish and craftsmanship goes... a real fine tool that will last longer than you or i. i can't speak to the others as there design isn't my cup of tea.
 
I grew up owning/using a pre-64 Winchester and, like most riflemen, was more than a little dismayed at the post-64 Winchester products.
Also, I have owned a fairly recent Remingtom M700 rifle and, although it performed perfectly well and was very accurate, it was never a part of me.

A few months ago, I bought a new Winchester M70 featherweight stainless/walnut in .308
I was, to say the least, delighted at the fine craftsmanship of these new M70's - if anything, it is BETTER than the pre-64's !!

FN/Browning should make more of these fine rifles. Because, at the price, there is little else of similar quality to compare them to.
 
Look at the M70 Extreme model. All stainless, all metal, and a decent fibreglass stock. Should be able to scope it with decent glass for $1300 all in. Most synthetic stocks are plastic. I believe the Weatherby Vanguard Back Country would also be a good buy with a decent stock.
 
I woulsn't buy a base model of either, which is where the QC issues have largely come up. The 700 XCR or M70 Featherweight both shot well for me, though the Remington fit me better and is the one I bought.
 
I don't know how many 700s I've owned, and I've bought 3 FN Model 70s in .458 (African) 30-06 (Supergrade) and .270 (Featherweight). The super-grade was returned as it was pretty lame as a shooter. Too bad, because I liked everything about that rifle. The .458 shoots like a varmint rifle and the newly purchased Featherweight is a classy little keeper that shoots.

I've had a love/hate thing going with Winchester for years. All I really wanted was a Winchester that shot and was put together like a Remington. How hard could that be? I'd say the FN M70s are the best Winchester ever made.

Remington is on my ####list for the Mark-X pro trigger, but it seems like the darn things just keep shooting better every year. My luck is much better when I just buy new rifles than used. If I'm buying used its either with the price of a new barrel priced in, or from a trusted friend at at a fair price for a select rifle. Select as opposed to the "Cull" or "Nothing special" rifles that get weeded out.

Vanguards have to be the biggest bargain around. They're not part of your post, but they bear looking into.
 
I was in your shoes just last year looking at my first bolt rifle... At the end of the day I would not worry about it too much. Go to a store and see what feels right in your hands. Once you get your first one out of the way, you get bitten by a bug and will want more and more. (don't worry though, it may not be a profitable investment but it is one that holds it's value pretty good so don't be afraid to buy a rifle just to try it out for a little while)

Starting out I was looking at the x-bolt, rem700, cz550, savage116, sako A7/tikka and wanted (more like wasn't sure what I wanted) a range of calibers from 308, to 30-06, 300wm, and 7mmRM. I ended up starting out with a Browning X-bolt in 300wm and now a year and a bit later I have purchased all the rifles and calibers that I was first looking at. Each one is good in it's own right and all shoot under 1" factory ammo, no complaints about either despite what my research brought up form other people's word.

Since this thread in about the Remington 700, I have no issues with mine. If anything, the factory trigger is the only weak point (although manageable) but an aftermarket one is not to expensive and is easy to install.

-Sako A7 is next on my list in 7mm RM or another rem700 for a project.

Last thing, do not cheap out on the glass. A lot of guys will tell you that right from the start for a reason. A 3-9 power is more then enough for most hunting needs (and are reasonably priced)
 
I've bought and sold a little of everything, and think that the FN Winchester 70s are probably the best rifles considering build quality and features. Featherweights point like shotguns for me. The new Safari stock design seems to soak up recoil really well. I like the CRF and the 3 position safety.

A Sako AV Finnbear is a beautiful, high quality jewel of a rifle. So are the FN Browning commercial Mausers of the 1950s and 60s. But they are getting rarer and it seems a crime to not pass minty examples on to collectors. The new Winchesters are capable, well-made and ergonomically friendly, and they don't have the usual plastic cheap-outs on them except for the base model stocks.
 
Just wanted to say thanks for all the responses and input into my decision making proces

scott_karana said:
Yeah, I've heard nothing but good things about the FN-made Winchester 70s. Pre-64 or FN, nothing else.

(It's their US plant, not Belgian though, fortis... :) )
Click to expand...

I was wondering that too, they seem to be built in the States still, but assembled over in Portugal before being shipped back.

horseman2 said:
While starting out as a quality or quality control issue, the author digressed to fit and feel and then allowed caliber to enter the fray.
There are many other thread and posts addressing these issues.
In the end your research may answer your concerns but most will come down to the level of personal acceptance.
Click to expand...

Yes, my original posting had strictly kept to wondering about the quality control issues that I had read plagued some models in recent years. I felt to garner the best responses, I should provide a bit of the background surrounding my particular quandary. I've read a number of threads on this forum relating to the various issues I had encountered and thought that the best responses would come from knowing the whole story! I do think that you hit the nail on the head with regards to the answer will come down to my level of personal acceptance.

-Savage- said:
I grew up owning/using a pre-64 Winchester and, like most riflemen, was more than a little dismayed at the post-64 Winchester products.
Also, I have owned a fairly recent Remingtom M700 rifle and, although it performed perfectly well and was very accurate, it was never a part of me.

A few months ago, I bought a new Winchester M70 featherweight stainless/walnut in .308
I was, to say the least, delighted at the fine craftsmanship of these new M70's - if anything, it is BETTER than the pre-64's !!

FN/Browning should make more of these fine rifles. Because, at the price, there is little else of similar quality to compare them to.
Click to expand...

blargon said:
Look at the M70 Extreme model. All stainless, all metal, and a decent fibreglass stock. Should be able to scope it with decent glass for $1300 all in. Most synthetic stocks are plastic. I believe the Weatherby Vanguard Back Country would also be a good buy with a decent stock.
Click to expand...

I did shoulder a Vanguard Series 2 synthetic, but didn't particularly like the feel of it. Have you noticed any difference between the Series 2 and the Series 2 Backcountry?
 
I do know of various shops that carry some of the rifles I've mentioned, but are there any ones in particular that I should be focusing on because of a stellar reputation? I'm most interested in shops in or around Calgary.
 
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