Model 12 value .

struff55

struff55

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Here's the deal guys plain field grade model12's no rib, full choke 28"or30" bbl 2 3/4" chamber condition 40%_60% $175-$200 60%_100% $200-$300 that's it .Blue book values don't apply nor does us pricing not that they are much more in the us for the same gun
 
Probably because every two weeks someone has a post regarding model 12 values and they are usually using American websites and books as a yardstick. Prices are MUCH lower on this side of the border for Winchester model 12's.
 
Only speaking of the plain 12ga field guns. If they are higher grade guns that changes pricing to sum degree .The post is in reference to the high number of over priced
model 12's on EE with 100's- 1000's of views that don't sell .
 
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struff55 said:
Only speaking of the plain 12ga field guns. If they are higher grade guns that changes pricing to sum degree .The post is in reference to the high number of over priced
model 12's on EE with 100's- 1000's of views that don't sell .
Click to expand...

See that one on the EE never fired with the hang tag. Wish I had some extra cash to make an offer on that. Many years since I seen a 1950's version never fired
University bills are some hard on the old gun purchases :(
Cheers
 
defiantly sounds like sour grapes of wanting one but not being able to get one for the price your willing to pay. I would suggest waiting patiently for one to surface on EE that meets your criteria on condition and price as opposed to repeated threads about EE pricing & wording ( I see this isn't your first rant about this topic , the other already being locked ) .

Now your comment "Blue book values don't apply nor does us pricing not that they are much more in the us for the same gun" -- just a thought -- maybe these shotguns do command there value on BOTH sides of the border and maybe that's why they are not readily found for $100-$200. Recently at the Chilliwack gun show there were several to be found but ranging from $300 for a well abused one and UP
Canadian pricing on firearms are all over the board and there is NO set value on anything, that being said most people go by the average prices they see listed and selling or by getting a professional appraisal from a gun dealer / store * which I did in my case from a supporting dealer *

I hope you do find your M12 OP , looks like you have been diligently searching for a while now and they are a very nice shotgun ( I may be biased on that being that I have 2 AND there up for sale :plug: :) ) but as a back-up I would consider another model , maybe a older Mossberg or a Norinco or something that is more readily found for the $100+ price range
 
Here are two example of pricing I bought both these guns at gun shows in the last to months and they are far from plaine .3" duck solid rib 30" full all orginal 65% condition$450 second gun 1947 solid Rib Trap Grade beautiful wood 2 3/4" 30" full this a field gun trap grade 60% condition unmolested $600.00 like a say EE has plaine guns basically for the same pricing .
 
I recently bought a 1959 built Model 12 Field that appears unfired and is in about 98-99% condition. I only paid $350 for it. Some would say it's a fair and average price but as far as I'm concerned it's really only about half of it's actual value. Truth is I would have paid 3x that for it because they are hard to come by. The quality of workmanship and materials that went into producing these guns cannot be matched today for the money...not even 5 times the money! I personally place a Model 12's value on the tightness of it's action over the percentage of finish left on it's exterior. In my books, a tight Model 12 with 50% finish for $450 is a better deal compared to a buying a new 870 Express or Turkish import...ream the choke to LM constriction and lengthen the forcing cone at the same time, you have an actual quality firearm that will last for generations! That short 2 3/4" will do 98% of what needs doing with a shotgun anyway!
 
They are super high quality but quality is an under appreciated commodity today in the gun world in my opinion. The model is worth what you can get for it same as any other make/model. I see what to me are reasonably priced model 12's sitting unbought for weeks but some mass produced pieces of crap are flying off the shelves. To me the advent of steel shot really had a negative impact on model 12 values in the last 25 years. They used to be considered the premier pump gun for waterfowl at one time. Personally I think the only pump that compares is the model 31 Remington and to a lesser degree the older Ithaca 37's.
 
The hard sell with a model 12 these days are: no choke tubes, no camo finish, no easily changed barrels, no synthetic furniture, usually no 3" (unless Heavy Duck) and fewer and fewer gunsmiths that actually work on a model 12. A lot of today's sportsmen and ladies prefer easily added aftermarket gadgets and guns that reflect modern technology. I always wondered why some one would pay 500.00 for a mass produced off shore shotgun and not buy the Model 12 or Auto 5 sitting beside it for less. I then realized I was looking at the situation through 50 plus year old eyes.... As for equals for reliability and performance I feel the Remington 870 and the Mossberg 500 will stand shoulder to shoulder with a model 12 any day and be a lot cheaper and easier to fix in the unlikely event they go lame compared to the 12.

Darryl
 
Yes, steel shot has greatly affected their value. But people can't seem to get over the fact that if you open up the choke you can shoot steel till the cows (or ducks) come home. But like everything, everybody wants to have the latest and the greatest. Nothing wrong with that I guess as it keeps the economy going. Besides, there aren't enough model 12's for everybody and those who do want them get a great gun at a fairly decent price. But yes, if they break down it's getting harder and harder to find someone who truly knows the ins and outs of them.
 
Yes but model 12's don't break down very often. And parts are still available if they do. Thomas Crosley Johnson designed it and borrowed heavily from John Browning's earlier designs. And John Browning didn't design any lemons.
 
Parts are not the real issue, it's the gun smithing that comes with them. Models 12 have some strange quirks when it comes to repair and it is not as simple as changing parts like on a 870 or 500. Just getting one to centre a firing pin strike on a primer can be a chore. I know. Chamber rings need an expert to fit and ream. Just saying that while the design was sound it takes almost as much skill as the likes of Johnson and Browning to get one running right when it goes sour. BUT they don't break down often and that is a good thing.

Darryl
 
The average hunter/"shooter" will never fire enough ammo thru a Model 12 to ever need major parts replacement...proof is in the fact that most M12s on the used market today are as tight as the day they left the factory. And in the event that a guy ever does manage to shoot one to the point the locking lug/recess or chamber ring needs to be worked on, he can easily replace it with another complete gun anyway.
 
Most repairs are not the result of excessive wear. Left and right extractor spring timing and set are what centres the bolt to correct an off centre pin strike most times. Removal of the barrel magazine assembly and excessively polishing the barrel chamber will leave a proud chamber ring and jamming issues ( no extraction with new steel head ammo). But I had to sit back and ponder your suggestion of just buying another 12 when that first one quits on you. I have to agree that it does make complete sense to do that no matter how unthinkable that would have been 50 years ago. My, have times changed. As for tight models 12 I have handled a few in shops that were TIGHT, but after cleaning 60 years of dirt, grease, dust and flattened lead pellets out of them they loosened up excessively. I would like to hear from some forum members who have insight on how many target loads a trap or skeet model 12 can run before it requires attention. It must be in the hundreds of thousands?

Darryl
 
Yes it would have been unthinkable 50 years...maybe even 30 years ago. When you consider the total of gunsmithing and parts cost today, replacing the whole gun does indeed make sense. Sadly, there are few "old timers" left that actually know how to properly fix the old workhorses today.

I know of one early (made in 1913 I believe) Black Diamond Model 1912 28" solid rib that has +86 000rds thru it on the trap field and who knows how many more in the duck/goose blinds. If I remember correctly the old guy told me he replaced the firing pin once and the rest is still as it left the factory...just not as pretty looking anymore! LOL!
 
madtrapper143 said:
..... I would like to hear from some forum members who have insight on how many target loads a trap or skeet model 12 can run before it requires attention. It must be in the hundreds of thousands? ... Darryl
Click to expand...

I put easily, 50k rounds through a Model 12 20ga Skeet with no issues whatsoever ... just regular cleaning - and it was a much used but well-cared for gun when I got it.
 
beretta boy said:
I put easily, 50k rounds through a Model 12 20ga Skeet with no issues whatsoever ... just regular cleaning - and it was a much used but well-cared for gun when I got it.
Click to expand...

It's going to take a lot more rounds than that to wear out a Model 12! The biggest issue you will run in to with a loosened up Model 12 is the inability for the bolt and slide to lock in the battery position. If you look at the internals, the action bar fits into a circular looking void on the bottom of the bolt, which can become worn. A gunsmith who knows Model 12s (Like Hugh MacIsaac in Scotland, Ontario) can easily add metal and reshape this component to make the gun lock up tight.

I've had a few field grade models that have needed this done.

As a matter of fact, I recently sold my Winchester Model 12 Black Diamond Trap for $1200 to fun another project. Kind of regretting that one!

-Nick
 
I have a couple model 12's but no 12ga nor did I use them for skeet or trap back in the day. The old man was a remington model 31 man then, wingmaster, superx1 etc so we didnot own too many
That being said I have 870's , 1100's and superx1's with 200,000 plus through them with no major issues other than rebuilding the 1100 every 2 weeks :D :D so cannot see why a model 12 could not go forever.
I remember reading about a guy that was approaching 1 million rounds and there was a friend of my dad's that still has the sweetest trap and skeet versions I have ever seen and those would be well over 200,000 each with the only think I remember him replacing in the 45 years I seen him shoot was 2 firing pins.
Man could he shoot it also and it was not hard to know he was smoking targets with the dam bark out of those old Cutts on the end.
In fact thanks for reminding me he must be 80 plus now and has not shot in 5 years or so and would never sell but maybe time to ask again since he has no one left to leave them to that I know of
As far as repairs today I have no idea buit know even back in the day the boys would send theirs to a smith that worked at Epps at the time who was a crackerjack around them. Forget his name and he would probally be up there in age now also
Cheers
 
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