Five Milsurps you should own
- Thread starter Andy
- Start date
4/5 for me. Sadly no Garand for me. My milsurp collection is lacking one of US origin. I think I'd pick up a Springfield first though.
Currently:
1943 No4 Mk1*
1947 Swiss K31
1938 Czech VZ24
1917 Steyr M95
1945 MAS36
1942 Carcano M41
1944 M91/30
1948 Turkish Forestry Carbine (built off a 1907/15 Berthier)
1899 Swedish M96
1942 Arisaka Type 99
Currently:
1943 No4 Mk1*
1947 Swiss K31
1938 Czech VZ24
1917 Steyr M95
1945 MAS36
1942 Carcano M41
1944 M91/30
1948 Turkish Forestry Carbine (built off a 1907/15 Berthier)
1899 Swedish M96
1942 Arisaka Type 99
I know the guy put a lot of thought and effort into this movie but I am sensing some bias.
1. he lists the K31 as a great gun and mentions that "dies, Brass and bullets are readily available for it" yet when talking about the enfield he calls 303 brit "a reloaders golden girl because 303 brit has no surplus left". now I'm aware that all of the surplus stuff petered out about 10 years ago and I got really lucky when I picked up 1600 rounds of HXP surplus a couple years ago but everyone makes ammo for it. remington, federal, PRVI, wolf, winchester and sellier and bellot all make ammo for it, not exactly what I would call a "reloaders golden girl".
2. he mentions the M98 mauser and loves the GEW98 to death but that movie is a bit deceiving since he mentions yugo surplus ammo and the great groups he's gotten when the early GEW98s are not rated for the more modern 8x57 charges.
personally for me I would list it a bit differently.
1. mosin nagant, even though they are one of the most crude, clunky, and least refined(if crude wasn't enough of a descriptor) rifle designs ever fielded, I still think everyone should own one. they are still one of the cheapest, shoot one of the cheapest rounds, and are still pretty fun although I will disagree with the movie maker in that they make horrible sporters, I've tried several different renditions, nothing was quite "all there". personally I have never shot any that were capable of better than 4 MOA accuracy with standard ammunition.
2. enfield, for all of the reasons he listed, the enfield NO4 MK1* was the rifle that got me into milsurps in the first place.
3. a mauser of some sort just because although I personally prefer the swedish variants as a #### on close just feels nicer during cycling and the 6.5 swede cartridge is far more useful over range as a hunting cartridge.
4. rather than the M1 garand, I would say that a springfield 1903 is the must have 30-06 rifle in a milsurp collection. the M1 has several drawbacks and though I generally shoot mine well, I will not claim that it is perfect. experience with springfields has been more stellar as far as accuracy, reliability, and fun to shoot goes... maybe I am also biased in that I don't like to root around for brass flung every which way by a semi auto, but if given a choice I would take a nice 1903A3 over a springfield anyday... unless the M1 was made by international harvester... those are RARE!!!!.
5. many people likely disagree on this but rather than the K31, I would recommend an Arisaka of some sort, preferably the 6.5. I love my arisakas and get great accuracy compared to most. yes the swiss have a better track record and more readily available ammo(the arisaka family is definitely a reloader's golden girl), but the arisaka is more of an oddity. I notice that the author struggled at a few points when trying to demonstrate the straightpull action while expertly cycling the rest of his top 5 by instinct, the arisaka is much like cycling an enfield without the benefit of a bent bolt.
everyone's different, I'm just adding my 2 cents. oh and I only have 3 of 5(enfield, garand, and 91/30)
1. he lists the K31 as a great gun and mentions that "dies, Brass and bullets are readily available for it" yet when talking about the enfield he calls 303 brit "a reloaders golden girl because 303 brit has no surplus left". now I'm aware that all of the surplus stuff petered out about 10 years ago and I got really lucky when I picked up 1600 rounds of HXP surplus a couple years ago but everyone makes ammo for it. remington, federal, PRVI, wolf, winchester and sellier and bellot all make ammo for it, not exactly what I would call a "reloaders golden girl".
2. he mentions the M98 mauser and loves the GEW98 to death but that movie is a bit deceiving since he mentions yugo surplus ammo and the great groups he's gotten when the early GEW98s are not rated for the more modern 8x57 charges.
personally for me I would list it a bit differently.
1. mosin nagant, even though they are one of the most crude, clunky, and least refined(if crude wasn't enough of a descriptor) rifle designs ever fielded, I still think everyone should own one. they are still one of the cheapest, shoot one of the cheapest rounds, and are still pretty fun although I will disagree with the movie maker in that they make horrible sporters, I've tried several different renditions, nothing was quite "all there". personally I have never shot any that were capable of better than 4 MOA accuracy with standard ammunition.
2. enfield, for all of the reasons he listed, the enfield NO4 MK1* was the rifle that got me into milsurps in the first place.
3. a mauser of some sort just because although I personally prefer the swedish variants as a #### on close just feels nicer during cycling and the 6.5 swede cartridge is far more useful over range as a hunting cartridge.
4. rather than the M1 garand, I would say that a springfield 1903 is the must have 30-06 rifle in a milsurp collection. the M1 has several drawbacks and though I generally shoot mine well, I will not claim that it is perfect. experience with springfields has been more stellar as far as accuracy, reliability, and fun to shoot goes... maybe I am also biased in that I don't like to root around for brass flung every which way by a semi auto, but if given a choice I would take a nice 1903A3 over a springfield anyday... unless the M1 was made by international harvester... those are RARE!!!!.
5. many people likely disagree on this but rather than the K31, I would recommend an Arisaka of some sort, preferably the 6.5. I love my arisakas and get great accuracy compared to most. yes the swiss have a better track record and more readily available ammo(the arisaka family is definitely a reloader's golden girl), but the arisaka is more of an oddity. I notice that the author struggled at a few points when trying to demonstrate the straightpull action while expertly cycling the rest of his top 5 by instinct, the arisaka is much like cycling an enfield without the benefit of a bent bolt.
everyone's different, I'm just adding my 2 cents. oh and I only have 3 of 5(enfield, garand, and 91/30)
He did say several times that his 'top 5' was in no particular order.
I personally feel Enfields, German Mausers and Garand prices have soared beyond the absurd.
The K-31, Russian stuff and some of the more obscure Mausers like the swedes still offer great value for money and are in some cases exceptional shooters - an awesome recipe for getting new shooters into the sport.
I personally feel Enfields, German Mausers and Garand prices have soared beyond the absurd.
The K-31, Russian stuff and some of the more obscure Mausers like the swedes still offer great value for money and are in some cases exceptional shooters - an awesome recipe for getting new shooters into the sport.
Ross don't seem to exist in the US and here we have access to the CMP which makes the garand much more affordable. $650 US from the CMP vs the usual $1100+ that you see at gun shows is a lot easier on the checkbook.
my list was also in no particular order, just adding my commentary.
my list was also in no particular order, just adding my commentary.
We can also get the SVT-40 for sub $300, whereas they go for $1200.00 and up south of the border, and that's IF you can actually find one. SVT-40s can be a bit to tweak and get to know, but once you do, they're reliable and throw a heckuva round. Not to mention drop-free box magazines, which is a step up from the Garand en bloc, IMHO. 30-06 does out-power the 7.62x54R, but not by enough to panic about.
Mind, with my current budget, the SVT is "the gun I own" vs. the M1 Garand being "the one I wished I could afford."
Overall, I can't say I much disagree with the list. I just wish I could afford to have them all, right now instead of the year or two it's going to take me to finish of my WWII battle rifle "essentials" collection I'm aiming for.
I would also say that the VZ-24 would be a good swap-in for the GW-98... Not quite the historical cache, but made up for with outstanding Brno quality.
Mind, with my current budget, the SVT is "the gun I own" vs. the M1 Garand being "the one I wished I could afford."
Overall, I can't say I much disagree with the list. I just wish I could afford to have them all, right now instead of the year or two it's going to take me to finish of my WWII battle rifle "essentials" collection I'm aiming for.
I would also say that the VZ-24 would be a good swap-in for the GW-98... Not quite the historical cache, but made up for with outstanding Brno quality.
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
No mention of the Ross. Have two of them
Shooters need to wean themselves from the requirement that "cheap surplus ammo be available". We're at the point where we are watching it fade into the sunset (30-06, 8X57 and 303 Brit in just the past 10 years) as most cheap surplus ammo has already disappeared, and the rest will disappear within the lifetimes of at least the younger shooters on CGN. Otherwise the list would be" SKS; Mosin Nagant; and SVT-40" - at least until next year.
Well, here in sunny UK I have -
1. 1897 Mauser carbine - Boer War bringback.
2. 1898 CG m96.
3. 1914 K11.
4. 1954 K31.
Still looking for a good LB - missed one last week with 600 rounds of HXP for only £250 [that's less than half the cost of the rifle alone here in UK, BTW]. Guy giving up to to old age and infirmity - I found out from the new owner that this 'poor old cripple' is just 62 years old!
Things are hard here for somebody like me - my local chief constable doesn't like people to have more than 16 Section 1 [rifled] firearms without RFD/FFL-level security installed. When she made the 'rule' I already had 18, so I have to sell one to get one...sigh.
tac
1. 1897 Mauser carbine - Boer War bringback.
2. 1898 CG m96.
3. 1914 K11.
4. 1954 K31.
Still looking for a good LB - missed one last week with 600 rounds of HXP for only £250 [that's less than half the cost of the rifle alone here in UK, BTW]. Guy giving up to to old age and infirmity - I found out from the new owner that this 'poor old cripple' is just 62 years old!
Things are hard here for somebody like me - my local chief constable doesn't like people to have more than 16 Section 1 [rifled] firearms without RFD/FFL-level security installed. When she made the 'rule' I already had 18, so I have to sell one to get one...sigh.
tac
I've got 2of5, some Mosins and a couple K31's. Off the list the only rifle I truly lust after is the K98. I suppose I may as well have an Enfield it's just I find them so ugly and awkward looking. Guess I'll have to at least give one a chance since I've never handled one.
@ JONGUN:
On July 6 of last year I watched a 72-year-old man pick up a rifle at random, flop down on his belly at the firing line and slam 15 rounds downrange. Thirteen of those were ON the 12-inch Gong at the 300-yard mark, the other 2 very close.
It took him 38 seconds to do this.
The rifle was a 1920-manufactured Lithgow SMLE Mark III which he had never handled previously.
There were almost 40 other witnesses to this and at least one of them filmed it.
The day that this can be done with a Moisin-Nagant or a Mauser or ANY other bolt rifle, I will acknowledge that it is the equal of a Lee-Enfield as a BATTLE rifle.
They just take a little bit of getting-used to.
The Lee rifle was first offered on the commercial market in 1879. That is 135 years ago. That they are still in military Service in two of the biggest Armies in the world means simply that nothing has been found in 135 years which can prove itself BETTER.
Try one. Learn how to use it the old Army way. Get used to it.
You'll change your sig line.
On July 6 of last year I watched a 72-year-old man pick up a rifle at random, flop down on his belly at the firing line and slam 15 rounds downrange. Thirteen of those were ON the 12-inch Gong at the 300-yard mark, the other 2 very close.
It took him 38 seconds to do this.
The rifle was a 1920-manufactured Lithgow SMLE Mark III which he had never handled previously.
There were almost 40 other witnesses to this and at least one of them filmed it.
The day that this can be done with a Moisin-Nagant or a Mauser or ANY other bolt rifle, I will acknowledge that it is the equal of a Lee-Enfield as a BATTLE rifle.
They just take a little bit of getting-used to.
The Lee rifle was first offered on the commercial market in 1879. That is 135 years ago. That they are still in military Service in two of the biggest Armies in the world means simply that nothing has been found in 135 years which can prove itself BETTER.
Try one. Learn how to use it the old Army way. Get used to it.
You'll change your sig line.
- Location
- Beaverlodge, Alberta
Agree with Smellie. I've tried all the different legal red rifles and they keep leaving the stable. My Rosses and Lee-Enfields all stay.
I don't think it can be done with the Moisin: bolt handle is too high, too stiff and you have to rotate it through a full 90 degrees.
The only Mauser which MIGHT be able to do it would be a 98k or a Swedish Model 38 with a turned-down bolt-handle. With the 98, you are fighting against the ####-on-opening feature AND the 5-round magazine, with the 38 you are fighting only against the 5-round magazine. With all three, you are fighting a longer bolt throw.
The 10-round Magazine, short bolt throw and the 60-degree bolt lift with ####-on-close of the Lee action are very real advantages.
Thirty-eight seconds is not very long, even if you have your rounds in Chargers.
It is a shot every two-and-a-half seconds: "Thousand and one, thousand and two, thousand BANG thousand and one, thousand and two, thousand BANG......" and even that count gives you ZERO time for a reload. To actually DO it, you have to figure on a round every ONE and a half seconds.
It's fast. It is very darned fast.
Most shooters can't do it on a Figure 11, much less a 12-inch Gong: only 4 MOA.
The only Mauser which MIGHT be able to do it would be a 98k or a Swedish Model 38 with a turned-down bolt-handle. With the 98, you are fighting against the ####-on-opening feature AND the 5-round magazine, with the 38 you are fighting only against the 5-round magazine. With all three, you are fighting a longer bolt throw.
The 10-round Magazine, short bolt throw and the 60-degree bolt lift with ####-on-close of the Lee action are very real advantages.
Thirty-eight seconds is not very long, even if you have your rounds in Chargers.
It is a shot every two-and-a-half seconds: "Thousand and one, thousand and two, thousand BANG thousand and one, thousand and two, thousand BANG......" and even that count gives you ZERO time for a reload. To actually DO it, you have to figure on a round every ONE and a half seconds.
It's fast. It is very darned fast.
Most shooters can't do it on a Figure 11, much less a 12-inch Gong: only 4 MOA.
