Truth abou Target/Grange's 3-week Ontario CFO LATT processing time.

As a member at Target, I am annoyed by the walk-ins, but they have never seriously inconvenienced me. I have to say that some of the girls who walk in are seriously hot, though.

As another poster mentioned above, it's a small price to pay for having the general public try some shooting, a number of which go on to become gun owners. Private clubs with 3000$ startup costs, 1-2 hour drives, and poor access in the winter do not serve the cause of gun ownership in Ontario and Canada nearly as well, pleasant though they are for their exclusive members who have the time for driving and the ability/desire to maintain their range.

The Grange is not perfect, but right now it's the best a handgun owner in Toronto has unless he lives in the far west of Toronto, half way to Hamilton. Would I love to have a better range, with 50 yard lanes for rifles, awesome ventilation, and better separation between bays.... for sure! Will that happen? Not unless someone is willing to risk millions on the project.

By the way JR, why didn't you buy that land that was on sale just north of Target, and add that second range? :)

I am hopeful that with the range improvements some things will get better, but certainly the crowding will not. Still, I have not found the crowds near so bad as described. Yes, there are moments when every bay is full, but then 30 minutes later 3 bays are being used and 7 sit empty.

I should point out that on weekends the crowding at Silverdale is far worse than at Target.

As for those guys firing .460's - yeah... that's actually my biggest annoyance at the Grange. This is an indoor range, and sound is a problem here. I didn't take up shooting to lose my hearing. To me that's a bigger issue than the crowds or the cost.

And the guys (and gal) at the shop.... they're mostly great.
 
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Protege said:
You need to re-read the first post. It has nothing to do with a backlog of ATT submissions on the part of the CFO. There was supposedly an email glitch and the CFO never received the application in the first place...and the OP's application sat for 3 weeks doing nothing. I don't think the OP is really pissed about that (ok maybe a bit). The main point here is the OP having a hard time contacting the right person to fix his/her problem. At this point, yes, money becomes an issue. The OP is paying twice the amount versus other nearby ranges, and is expecting better than average service - and in his/her mind, those expectations are not being met.
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I wasn't addressing only the OP but all the stories or complaints that I simply have not experienced. Read my last couple posts. Wasn't attacking anyone, therefore you have no reason to feel the need to step in and defend the OP, perhaps he appreciates a good white knight ;) but my guess is he can handle himself (and he did, we already cleared up any issues).

Feel free to re-read my post as I DO discuss some issues that I've had at the range. Believe me, I know that we pay a premium there and without question have thought to myself that the service could be better. If it was that big of a deal, I'd go somewhere else. It's not perfect. None are.

Thanks buddy, Happy Holidays.
 
Range B is supposed to be exclusive for members, but they take walk-ins there all the time. If was truly exclusive this practice would be forbidden, however since walk-ins bring the store tons of money that is why they do it.
 
I can vouch for his statement, I know two employees who were recently fired for speaking their mind, with concerns over safety.

Safety is a huge issue at Target Sports, currently when they take walk-ins there is one Target Employee (RO) supervising them in each shooting lane, JR is pushing to have one RO supervise 2 or 3 shooting lanes at a time with walkins instead of just one, as that will bring more money and less staff expense. How is one RO supposed to supervise 3 walk-in shooters at the same time?

His rational is that is how they do it at TSE so it should be done here as well. According to him TSE is making much more money and bringing through many more shooters, and Target Sports has to do more. If not for the push-back from the staff over safety concerns it would have been implemented already.


Punisher-One said:
No.....no it is absolutely NOT a bold faced lie. My life-long friend and someone I trust a lot more than you was fired for speaking out about the safety issues surrounding your lack of ventilation.

I typed out a huge response to you JR but I deleted it as I thought better of it. I have a huge distaste of your management and how you treated people I am friends with. I will not be giving you my name so it can affect my membership and LTATT. Call me a liar all you want that is fine. I am not a liar, I am not lying, and we both know exactly what I am talking about. There is a reason some really really good counter and management staff do not work at Target anymore......and have obtained better positions in other firearms/shooting related companies.

I will say that for $600/year you should be doing better. Non-member walk ins taking priority over members for lanes and service (this is true also). I don't care if my guest is not a member they are a member's paying guest and should not be told they can not have a lane because walk-ins are priority. That is not right. Non-member walk-ins not disciplined for things members would be revoked for. The money is clearly in the walk-ins and it shows with the service and the shooting lanes. That is sad. If you want to do walk-ins to make extra money I get it......but they shouldn't be taking priority away from people that pay $600/year to be there each and every year. Membership should come with more perks than a single lane (maybe) if there aren't too many walk ins.

On the flip side BJ is a good guy. So are several of the counter staff that I'll deal with....the only ones I'll deal with. The store is actually well-priced when it comes to accessories and with the new 5.11 stuff I have to say I was impressed. The prices on the 5.11 stuff actually can't be beat.
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Sharked said:
JR is pushing to have one RO supervise 2 or 3 shooting lanes at a time with walkins instead of just one, as that will bring more money and less staff expense. How is one RO supposed to supervise 3 walk-in shooters at the same time?

His rational is that is how they do it at TSE so it should be done here as well. According to him TSE is making much more money and bringing through many more shooters, and Target Sports has to do more. If not for the push-back from the staff over safety concerns it would have been implemented already.
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JR, can you address this?

I would have serious concerns with having a single RO supervise more than 1 group. Really.
 
Sharked said:
I can vouch for his statement, I know two employees who were recently fired for speaking their mind, with concerns over safety.

Safety is a huge issue at Target Sports, currently when they take walk-ins there is one Target Employee (RO) supervising them in each shooting lane, JR is pushing to have one RO supervise 2 or 3 shooting lanes at a time with walkins instead of just one, as that will bring more money and less staff expense. How is one RO supposed to supervise 3 walk-in shooters at the same time?

His rational is that is how they do it at TSE so it should be done here as well. According to him TSE is making much more money and bringing through many more shooters, and Target Sports has to do more. If not for the push-back from the staff over safety concerns it would have been implemented already.
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To both: Sharked and Punisher One

You have no idea what you are writing. As I have pretty low turnover, I can make a pretty good guess as to your two "sources". They were hardly let go for voicing safety concerns.

Yes, TSE is more profitable but if your two "sources" actually told you what was discussed at a confidential staff meeting, you would know that I have been training them to push on the retail. Not the range. As far as I am concerned, the range is at capacity. Which is why we also do not advertise the range use.

And yes, an RO should be able to watch two lanes at a time. We have a proven method and give the ROs appropriate training to do this safely and efficiently. We already have the ROs in Target watch 2 lanes. After 14 years experience and over 150,000 newbies trained, I challenge your to opinion with fact.

As to safety: The ONLY safety issues we have at all, stem from the members. Just look at the roof on A range compared to B range. Currently we spend about $3k a month welding and repairing A range (members side) compared to about $500-750 on the B range (walk-ins). We have had members have actual NDs outside the bays, NEVER even muzzle issues with walk-ins. This week alone we found 7.62x39 brass, 5.56 brass and 7.62 Tokarov brass on the members side. All 3 are prohibited cartridges at this time and 2 of the 3 cause massive damage and HUGE safety concerns. I suggest the membership police themselves better before condemning the rest of the business.

As to "exclusivity": This is a myth perpetuated by wants and desires. While we make every effort to keep the walk-ins out of the A range, occasionally it happens. It is not a regular practice, but I am not going to apologize for it. There are reasons ALL new ranges encourage walk-ins; it grows the sport and it pays the bills.

I take these lies very personally. If you actually believed what your wrote with any conviction, you would put your real name out here. But nope... hiding in the the shadows is easier.

I will leave this thread open till this afternoon and delete it as it serves no purpose other than to forward some negative agenda.

JR
 
TJspeller said:
JR, can you address this?

I would have serious concerns with having a single RO supervise more than 1 group. Really.
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Why?

Just because they are watching 2-3 lanes does not mean all 3 are shooting at the same time. Also, there is magazine loading and other concurrent activities going on in a range.

I understand you may have your concerns, but we spend a day training every RO and have them shadow with a range mentor before we unleash them on the public. My ROs are well trained and given every tool to succeed.

This is not an unsafe practice.

JR
 
I would argue that having a RO try to watch 2 or 3 unlicensed shooters firing at the same time, is very unsafe. RO is supposed to be within arms reach of the firearm, how can he or she do that on more then one lane?

If it was proven, the RO's that have not quit or been fired yet would not be fighting you on this. Even your most senior RO is against it, and he is the one who signs off on all the other RO's training.
 
Sharked said:
I would argue that having a RO try to watch 2 or 3 unlicensed shooters firing at the same time, is very unsafe. RO is supposed to be within arms reach of the firearm, how can he or she do that on more then one lane?

If it was proven, the RO's that have not quit or been fired yet would not be fighting you on this. Even your most senior RO is against it, and he is the one who signs off on all the other RO's training.
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Firstly, argue with what facts? You have designed how many training courses? You have run how many new shooters through a familiarization program? Just because you "think" something is unsafe, does not make it so. Especailly when your "opinion" is based on feelings. Kind of like the anti-gun arguments.

Also, who's fighting me on it? Which "most senior RO" are you referring to? I just got back from visiting and morale is very high AND they are watching 2 lanes at a time. No problems, no issues.

Again, you make bold claims, but refuse to identify yourself.

JR
 
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luckey said:
May I ask which club are you guys in? I may have to start looking. I live in north york and prefer not to spend 1.5 to 2 hours on the road for this.
To be fair, the staff @ Target are pretty good. I have been dealing with a few different person during my probation. They have all been very professional and patient with me. So far what frustrate me the most are all the ridiculous rules and processes that seems to be company policy/culture related, or just poor management.

Target distinguishes it from all other non-profit clubs for being a full corporation. Then they should act like one because we are not only members, but also customers with certain expectation on service. With the price like this, the service is definitely far from acceptable.
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Could you clarify what rules and policies you find confusing or frustrating. I try hard to keep the Target rules limited. I need more info to address this potential concern.

Cheers,

JR
 
Thanks SGuard6, I like the place and the people so far. Things do happen as we are all human, so as long as it's addressed, no biggie. see u on the range. :)

SGuard6 said:
In that case, Luckey I'm sorry to hear that something along the way got botched with your ATT. I wasn't attacking anybody in particular, simply explaining my experience versus what others had experienced. I guess I was lucky because my FOB, ID & ATT all came in around the same time, roughly two weeks. Then upon renewal I had to wait another couple weeks for another ATT. Luckily that one is valid until my RPAL expires so shouldn't have to lose anymore time waiting for paperwork. Congrats on becoming a member, hope you enjoy it as I think you're coming in at the right time, as previously mentioned some upgrades are incoming in the near future, if not underway already. And as I stated, how those upgrades turn out remains to be seen. Hopefully I will see you there enjoying some pew pew time!
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I have heard from many RO's they are not happy about what you are trying to do. I'm not going to name them as they are still working at Target.

You claim that RO's now watch 2 lanes. On weekends there is one RO watching each lane with sometimes another senior RO watching everyone from the back.


Your own words were that TSE has less lanes and does much more walk-ins and that Target needs to push more walk-ins through. It was stated they needed more RO's and you said that TSE has up to three lines shooting per RO.

You even said about maybe changing the stall walls to be glass so 1 RO can watch all lanes.
 
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The forum will not tolerate accusation made in the public forum.

The poster "sharked", you need to retract calling people liars immediately, or we will hand you an infraction. This is not the first time you post accusation in the public.
 
Hi J.R.

mainly two rules/processes.

one is the full membership start time. the current rule lacks consideration to new members who only has restricted, especially when target is designed to be pistol range. As you can see from the various posts, the best scenario is to wait for two weeks for the ATT. in my case, an email glitch sets me back for more than a month. Money is one thing, but not the real big deal as it's 25, 50 we are talking here. However, from business perspective, it does not look good as not only I am not treated like a welcomed member, but also given the expensive ammo associated with range gun use, there would be a perception that target is trying to squeeze out more from members. Ideally, the membership should start when the ATT arrives as we all know the Ontario CFO is pretty reasonsable(I have been watching the processing time for a while), or at least starts when the member card and fob are ready which is more under your control than ATT if CFO time is still a concern. I think this is fair unless I missed something.
two is about the glitch. This exposes two issues as far as I can see. A. a single point of failure in your process. As claimed, there are 2000 members in the club, yet only one person handles all the requests with NO backup whatsoever. In the multiple attempts I talked to the store, all except the store manager know neither his work schedule nor the mean to contact him. Even for the store manager, he was hesitate to do anything until I told him that the issue is definitely not CFO. Yet still he could only contact that person to address the issue. This should and can be addressed without adding much cost. I do manage people with the same budget constraint like everyone else, but it's part of the business continuity plan to ensure every single function in your business to have a backup. B. Request tracking/following up. Based on the experience, one should have an expectation what's the turnaround and follow-up if nothing back in the reasonable time frame.This can be done either with a simple calendar alerts, or speadsheet which again, no cost, but process and training.

TSE JR said:
Could you clarify what rules and policies you find confusing or frustrating. I try hard to keep the Target rules limited. I need more info to address this potential concern.

Cheers,

JR
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TSE JR said:
To both: Sharked and Punisher One

You have no idea what you are writing. As I have pretty low turnover, I can make a pretty good guess as to your two "sources". They were hardly let go for voicing safety concerns.

Yes, TSE is more profitable but if your two "sources" actually told you what was discussed at a confidential staff meeting, you would know that I have been training them to push on the retail. Not the range. As far as I am concerned, the range is at capacity. Which is why we also do not advertise the range use.

And yes, an RO should be able to watch two lanes at a time. We have a proven method and give the ROs appropriate training to do this safely and efficiently. We already have the ROs in Target watch 2 lanes. After 14 years experience and over 150,000 newbies trained, I challenge your to opinion with fact.

As to safety: The ONLY safety issues we have at all, stem from the members. Just look at the roof on A range compared to B range. Currently we spend about $3k a month welding and repairing A range (members side) compared to about $500-750 on the B range (walk-ins). We have had members have actual NDs outside the bays, NEVER even muzzle issues with walk-ins. This week alone we found 7.62x39 brass, 5.56 brass and 7.62 Tokarov brass on the members side. All 3 are prohibited cartridges at this time and 2 of the 3 cause massive damage and HUGE safety concerns. I suggest the membership police themselves better before condemning the rest of the business.

As to "exclusivity": This is a myth perpetuated by wants and desires. While we make every effort to keep the walk-ins out of the A range, occasionally it happens. It is not a regular practice, but I am not going to apologize for it. There are reasons ALL new ranges encourage walk-ins; it grows the sport and it pays the bills.

I take these lies very personally. If you actually believed what your wrote with any conviction, you would put your real name out here. But nope... hiding in the the shadows is easier.

I will leave this thread open till this afternoon and delete it as it serves no purpose other than to forward some negative agenda.

JR
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I have more of an idea of what I am talking about than you ever will. Your arrogance gets in the way of you accepting any criticism from anyone, even experienced members at your club and of course employees. Any employee who voices a concern is gone. You will not ever change my mind. Members who voice concerns are told "go somewhere else" as you have said numerous times on this forum. Your attitude is clear and it is that you don't give a crap what members say or any thoughts/concerns they have. You simply tell them to leave if they don't like it. After this display of arrogance on here I will NEVER spend another dime at any business you are involved in. I hope people read this and think twice about giving your businesses any money at all. Your clubs are not worth the premiums paid to be members. Target has some awesome employees now and has had many awesome employees in the past. It is your lack of concern for members and employees opinions, JR, that drives good employees and members from that club.

I take what I say 100% seriously and I 100% back up what I say. I am NOT putting my name on here so you can kick me out and ban me from the premises like you have done to the many employees you have disgracefully fired over the years. Forget that bud.
If you took these "lies" personally maybe you would listen to our concerns instead of arrogantly calling us liars and insisting there are no problems to be taken care of at Target.

Delete any thread that damages your rep eh. Talk about can't let the real opinion of target out there. What a joke.
 
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Oh.....for posterity I have saved this page on my computer for when the thread is deleted. I can post it up once a day if you like? Or maybe you can leave it open and attempt to have a dialogue with us. Either way I leave the ball in your court.
I will say that a real business owner that cared for his members would attempt to have a dialogue with us and understand our concerns and offer positive solutions. They would not, like you have, call us liars, tell us we have no idea, and then tell us you are locking the thread because you don't like our opinions. I guess free speech applies anywhere but Target and The Shooting Edge eh? Disgusting.
 
CGN Admin said:
The forum will not tolerate accusation made in the public forum.

The poster "sharked", you need to retract calling people liars immediately, or we will hand you an infraction. This is not the first time you post accusation in the public.
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So JR can call us liars and that is ok with CGN admin but you caution us? Come on my friend.
 
I have edited my post and removed the word lie, as you requested.

CGN Admin said:
The forum will not tolerate accusation made in the public forum.

The poster "sharked", you need to retract calling people liars immediately, or we will hand you an infraction. This is not the first time you post accusation in the public.
Click to expand...
 
If you sent me a PM I would gladly send you an email with everything I have observed that I am concerned about. I will even do it from my real email address if you like. If you care and if you are open to changing things. There are things I have seen there that I would never post in a public forum about a range. I support our sport too much to say some things in public.
 
luckey said:
Hi J.R.

mainly two rules/processes.

one is the full membership start time. the current rule lacks consideration to new members who only has restricted, especially when target is designed to be pistol range. As you can see from the various posts, the best scenario is to wait for two weeks for the ATT. in my case, an email glitch sets me back for more than a month. Money is one thing, but not the real big deal as it's 25, 50 we are talking here. However, from business perspective, it does look good as not only I am not treated like a welcomed member, but also given the expensive ammo associated with range gun use, there would be a perception that target is trying to squeeze out more from members. Ideally, the membership should start when the ATT arrives as we all know the Ontario CFO is pretty reasonsable(I have been watching the processing time for a while), or at least starts when the member card and fob are ready which is more under your control than ATT if CFO time is still a concern. I think this is fairunles I missed something.
two is about the glitch. This exposes two issues as far as I can see. A. a single point of failure in your process. As claimed, there are 2000 members in the club, yet only one person handles all the requests with NO backup whatsoever. In the multiple attempts I talked to the store, all except the store manager know neither his work schedule nor the mean to contact him. Even for the store manager, he was hesitate to do anything until I told him that the issue is definitely not CFO. Yet still he could only contact that person to address the issue. This should and can be addressed without adding much cost. I do manage people with the same budget constraint like everyone else, but it's part of the business continuity plan to ensure every single function in your business to have a backup. B. Request tracking/following up. Based on the experience, one should have an expectation what's the turnaround and follow-up if nothing back in the reasonable time frame.This can be done either with a simple calendar alerts, or speadsheet which again, no cost, but process and training.
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Luckey,

Thanks for the follow-up.

I will look into the start date. Fortunately, once the new laws come into effect, there will be no need for a waiting period as the LTATT becomes part of the P.A.L. This will also help speed things up.

There most definitely is NOT 2000 members. There is less than 1000 members and this fluctuates monthly. Unfortunately, the GRANGE club controls the paperflow, so any issues with that needs to be brought up with them. It has nothing to do with budgets, it has to do with the Grange itself. We have asked to have a Grange representative (B.J.) available at specific scheduled times, but we cannot demand. Those changes have to be made by the Grange executive.
 
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