Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: PAL "Conditions"

  1. #1
    CGN Regular Baitcaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    119

    PAL "Conditions"

    Dumb question - I got my PAL card in the mail. The letter that came with the card says I have to detach the bottom portion, which contains the "conditions" of my PAL, and carry it with me. If there are no conditions listed on the paper, do I still have to carry it with me?

  2. #2
    CGN Ultra frequent flyer bollox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Calgary, AB
    Posts
    5,486
    You will hear differing opinions on this. IMO, carrying a blank piece of paper is about the silliest thing imagined.
    sic semper tyrannis

  3. #3
    CGN Regular Baitcaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    119
    Agreed......but we are talking about the government here...

    Quote Originally Posted by bollox View Post
    You will hear differing opinions on this. IMO, carrying a blank piece of paper is about the silliest thing imagined.

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Vancouver
    Posts
    66
    Quote Originally Posted by Baitcaster View Post
    Agreed......but we are talking about the government here...
    You can just call the CFO and ask them about it. Likely no, you won't have to carry it if there's no conditions on it. But if you really feel the need the need to just detach it and carry it around with you. I mean, it never hurts to cover your ass.

  5. #5
    CGN frequent flyer
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Southern Alberta
    Posts
    1,208
    I am assuming you don't have any restricted firearms yet. Once you register a restricted firearm you will likely receive a new RPAL and will have conditions.

  6. #6
    CGN Ultra frequent flyer Aniest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Edmonton city limits and east
    Posts
    2,989
    Quote Originally Posted by armycat View Post
    I am assuming you don't have any restricted firearms yet. Once you register a restricted firearm you will likely receive a new RPAL and will have conditions.
    Ignorance is bliss: can you please stop reminding me of all of the ignorant, stupid f###ing ways they waste my tax money... please and thank you.
    Check my "Started Threads" for Equipment Exchange ads: https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/member.php/76158-Aniest

  7. #7
    CGN frequent flyer
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    1,977
    I do not know if he posts on here, but this is the best answer I've ever seen on this matter.

    NOT my post. Just sharing, "varsil" from reddit -

    Quote Originally Posted by varsil
    Short answer: Maybe.

    That's probably terribly unsatisfying, so let's look at why we get to "maybe".

    First of all, I don't know if you have restricteds or not. I'm guessing not, because otherwise that scrap of paper would have the ATT on it as a condition. Note, though, that you can also have another ATT that you might be using.

    Now, the part that says "Please detach the conditions below" isn't part of your conditions. But if your conditions sheet is like mine then it also includes a line like this:

    "Carry this document with your licence card as you must be able to produce this document on demand if requested by a peace officer or other authority."

    Now, it's pretty clear that no lawyers were allowed in the room when they drafted that formula text. I think they'd have some interesting times enforcing that. Let's say I leave my licence at home. Am I required to have the paper with my licence, or to be able to produce it? Is being able to produce it the same thing as actually producing it? I mean, I might be able to produce it and just refusing to do so... This is seriously bad wording for a legal document, and raises questions as to the legal enforceability. But, let's assume it can be enforced. What's the penalty?

    If we assume non-restricteds, here are possible consequences:

    70(1)(a)(ii) of the Firearms Act states:
    70 (1) A chief firearms officer may revoke a licence, an authorization to carry or an authorization to transport for any good and sufficient reason including, without limiting the generality of the foregoing,
    (a) where the holder of the licence or authorization
    (ii) contravenes any condition attached to the licence or authorization, or

    So, assuming that you have a condition to carry that piece of paper (check the piece of paper), and assuming that condition is enforceable, then failing to do so can allow the CFO to revoke your licence.

    Which sucks.

    But wait: It gets worse.

    110 Every person commits an offence who, without lawful excuse, contravenes a condition of a licence, registration certificate or authorization held by the person.

    Maximum punishment on that one is two years in prison, by the by. You'd be very unlikely to get two years in prison, though.

    That's assuming you're moving a non-restricted. Let's move on to the other thought of you moving a restricted firearm.

    All of the above still applies. In addition, it could be argued that instead of s. 110 of the Firearms Act, that you might be transporting your firearm in a way that is unauthorized. Note that it is not clear that this would stand, for reasons that are probably too complicated for this comment. But the argument is there, and that's a very serious penalty.

    As /u/dabbin [+8] pointed out, you also have to worry about s. 117.03, which allows an officer to seize your firearms if you can't produce a licence, authorization, etc. Note that 117.03 isn't a charge, it's just an authorization for a seizure. It's permissive rather than mandatory (so the officer can decide not to seize your stuff), but odds are good that you get your stuff seized. But, 117.03 was designed to try to meet the initial promises of "You won't be charged for forgetting your papers at home". So it also includes a provision that allows you to get your stuff back by showing up and presenting a licence and authorization.

    That doesn't seem so bad, right? Well, after fourteen days of you not showing up, they can apply to forfeit it to the Crown. Oh, and remember that bit about how violating a condition can allow them to revoke your licence? Yeah, that can be bad here.

    Now, there's various things a lawyer competent in this area can do to prevent a catastrophe if you're found without it, but best to avoid needing one (much as I like cash).

    So yeah, I carry the slip of paper.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaguns/..._your_licence/

  8. #8
    CGN Regular TheFalseProphet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    277
    Quote Originally Posted by Baitcaster View Post
    Dumb question - I got my PAL card in the mail. The letter that came with the card says I have to detach the bottom portion, which contains the "conditions" of my PAL, and carry it with me. If there are no conditions listed on the paper, do I still have to carry it with me?
    I think the idea is if you should ever have to be showing your license to a police officer, they have the right to ask to see the conditions. They don't know if a) the page is blank, b) you have just the standard transportation conditions, or c) you have some screwball condition(s) imposed on you by your CFO. I don't know anyone who knows anyone being subject to (c) but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

    They might not ask at all. They might take your word on there being no conditions. They might call the RCMP or CFO to verify. But they aren't required to do any of those things. Carry it or don't...depends if you're the "hope for the best" or "prepare for the worst" type.

  9. #9
    CGN Ultra frequent flyer VanIsleCam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    8,003
    My piece of paper said "Standard Conditions Apply" and that was it as I recall.

    Unfortunately, I had my wallet with me when I dumped getting out of a canoe. Soaked everything although my plastic license, other cards and currency survived. The bundle of receipts and paper PAL did not.
    Proarm Militant - Variant Factory - Data Shopper - Fringe Minority

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •