beowulf magazine

[VinnyQC]

-The capacity of the magazine is governed by the calibre it was designed for. (This is written crystal clear in the cartridge control regs of the Criminal Code.)
-The AR 15 FOW was designed for the .223 Rem round.
-About 40 years later Beowulf (and others) introduced .50 Beowulf (458 SOCOM ect)
-Beowulf advertised and told everyone that their new calibre worked with any AR 15 FOW's lower and mags (this is what made it a great idea / conversion for all who already owned AR 15's)

-Fast forward to today in Canada. Some people are resting their case on a few things:
1. Beowulf mags are designed only for .50 Beowulf! Nothing else!
2. If the magazine is marked .50 Beowulf then haha it is a Beowulf mag! (even though it feeds, holds and functions with .223 Rem. to some extend)
3. Bending magazine lips, changing magazine followers "magically changes a magazine from a .223 Rem one to a .50 Beowulf one".
4. People confuse the 10 round capacity for handguns in Canadian Law as applying to the legal paragraphs relating to non-handgun, centre-fire, semi-automatic capacities for firearms.

Pretend you are in court. Judge may have low experience in firearms:
-Your .50 Beowulf mag is held up as evidence.
-14 rounds of .223 Rem are inserted and held by the magazine.
-The magazine is able to be inserted and latched / held by an AR15 rifle in .223 Rem Calibre
Are you confident in your legal position because there were these expert guys on Canadian Gunnutz that said these were perfectly legal?

I love hi-cap mags, I want these to be legal, I need these to be legal. I remember the days of shooting with hi-cap mags, what a blast.
Just because I want these to be legal so bad does not mean that they are. Careful about placing yourself in a echo chamber with similarly minded people...it can turn out to be dangerous.

Rich

That you keep copy/pasting the same thing on every thread doesn't make it true. Go back to the thread where I completely debunked your argument and copy/paste my answer too.

[VinnyQC]

Sorry being charged with possession of a prohibited device will not provide for you to elect a jury trial.

Also don't put too much weight into the post given to Global News several years ago. Mistakes can be made when put on the spot by the News Media and this is clearly corrected now that the Beowulf mag issue has been examined in detail.
The law is crystal clear on this issue. Go and read the Cartridge Control regs for yourself.

Again engraving a mag with the word "Beowulf", bending lips and changing a follower does not constitute "completely redesigning a magazine system". Especially when the mag still retains 223 Remington Cartridges to some extent ++++ plus +++ still feeds and functions 223 Remington Cartridges in an AR 15 Pattern rifle to some extent!

Why do some people on Gunnutz find this so hard to understand? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to legally have 14 or 15 round mags to use in my various rifles and I wish this was true...but it's not.

Rich

If you believe that the only reason why a bewulf magazine is because someone engraved beowulf on it, then I understand why you're so mistaken. It is not.

[VinnyQC]

^^^ Actually in the case of the RCMP selling bomb materials to that couple in BC, it was ruled entrapment.^^^

I was referring to a case in Ontario. I wasn't even aware of the one in BC. But I guess selling bomb making material to terrorists is par for the course for the pony police.

I've honestly stopped having any confidence in the rcmp after the Alain Olivier's case. The pony police is by far the most corrupted, badly trained police corp in canada. Glad they barely exist here in the east.

[Savage]

I will agree with Rich LPS as for corruption I think the QPP leads the way on that one .

[Rich LPS]

So what is your point VinnyQC?

What can you offer to prove that the Beowulf AR15 magazine is a completely different "redesigned" magazine from an AR15 .223 / 5.56mm one? That doesn't fit in an AR15 FOW's magazine well and successfully latch.
Also the ability of the Beowulf Magazine to function with 223 Rem is not absolute....meaning it does not have to function in the firearm or function perfectly. We are talking about just the magazine as defined in the Criminal Code. Does it retain 223 Remington?
As I have stated many times; It is a very weak legal position to take to just bend mag lips, change a follower and engrave the magazine. Especially when those methods do not significantly compromise the magazine's ability to retain and function, to a certain extent, with 223 Remington Ammo.

Don't forget....Alexander Arms promoted and advertised their "new upper in 50 Beowulf" (back in about 2002) as being perfectly compatible with any AR15 FOW's lower and magazines.

Rich

[shawn]

What can you offer to prove that the Beowulf AR15 magazine is a completely different "redesigned" magazine from an AR15 .223 / 5.56mm one?

Prove where the law says it has to be a completely different "redesigned" anything? You wont because it does not exist

That doesn't fit in an AR15 FOW's magazine well and successfully latch.

Prove where the law says a mag can not function in more than one firearm. You wont because it does not exist

It is a very weak legal position to take to just bend mag lips, change a follower and engrave the magazine. Especially when those methods do not significantly compromise the magazine's ability to retain and function, to a certain extent, with 223 Remington Ammo

Prove where the law defines what is an acceptable amount of alteration. You wont because it does not

Sorry the FRT is not law and the law has not changed.

Shawn

[Rich LPS]

Shawn,

I don't need to prove anything to you, I'm just trying to explain what the law says. When someone is charged they will be defending their selves in-front of a Judge, at their expense.

Good luck trying to explain that your Beowulf magazine is not "capable of containing more than five cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed". It's cute rhetoric to say that the FRT is not law, are you saying that it will not be presented and used to assist the Court? Quite the opposite. It's easy to say what you want on the internet and sometimes mislead others but quite different when you are facing the criminal charge and standing in court trying to defend yourself.

Rich

[beltfed]

What is needed:

Step 1: A shooter to come forward, and get charged using .223/5.56 NATO in a .50 Beowulf marked magazine.

Step 2: The Crown to proceed with the charge file, not offer any plea, and prosecute it in Court.

Step 3: The defence council to defend the charge and not accept any plea offering.

Step 4: A Provincial Court Justice to hand down his findings establishing case law.

Step 5: The defence council appeal the findings if it didn’t go their way, or
The Crown takes the findings to the Minister of Pubic Safety and says something to the effect of “look at the soup sandwich the laws you wrote have created (you know, assuming they are not already having that conversation...) - fix it)

Step 6: Minister of Public Safety creates more waterproof draconian laws and tightens up the magazine restrictions.

Who’s the first sucker to step in line for this ride? Anyone?
Bueller?
Bueller?

[Suther]

What is needed:

Step 1: A shooter to come forward, and get charged using .223/5.56 NATO in a .50 Beowulf marked magazine.

Step 2: The Crown to proceed with the charge file, not offer any plea, and prosecute it in Court.

Step 3: The defence council to defend the charge and not accept any plea offering.

Step 4: A Provincial Court Justice to hand down his findings establishing case law.

Step 5: The defence council appeal the findings if it didn’t go their way, or
The Crown takes the findings to the Minister of Pubic Safety and says something to the effect of “look at the soup sandwich the laws you wrote have created (you know, assuming they are not already having that conversation...) - fix it)

Step 6: Minister of Public Safety creates more waterproof draconian laws and tightens up the magazine restrictions.

Who’s the first sucker to step in line for this ride? Anyone?
Bueller?
Bueller?

Currently I know of two people who were charged with 50 Beo Mags. One the charges were dropped and mags returned, the other the charges were dropped in exchange for the mags.

The fact that nobody has completed your Step 2, despite the widespread use of the magazines (Cops could have a hay-day at most Tactical rifle/3 gun/ect match) makes me question how motivated they are to do anything about this particular change. Something would have to change before using 50 Beo mags is dealt with the same as if you had a 30rd mag without a rivet (legally they're the same thing according to RCMP interpretation - prohibited magazines.)

While the law never changed, interpretations can and do. I can see the RCMP's argument that the Beo Mags are just modified 556 mags and thus there is no such thing as a 50 Beowulf magazine, it would be interesting to know what would cause them to change their opinion. Personally, I have no damn idea whether its a 556 magazine thats been modified to work better with the 50 Beo, or if they are somehow unique in design. What I do know is whether the RCMP are right or wrong, I can't afford a lawyer to fight it either way.

I'm thinking the only one who can prove its a unique design is Alexander Arms, and from what I hear they won't cough up any info on it.

[VinnyQC]

So what is your point VinnyQC?

What can you offer to prove that the Beowulf AR15 magazine is a completely different "redesigned" magazine from an AR15 .223 / 5.56mm one? That doesn't fit in an AR15 FOW's magazine well and successfully latch.
Also the ability of the Beowulf Magazine to function with 223 Rem is not absolute....meaning it does not have to function in the firearm or function perfectly. We are talking about just the magazine as defined in the Criminal Code. Does it retain 223 Remington?
As I have stated many times; It is a very weak legal position to take to just bend mag lips, change a follower and engrave the magazine. Especially when those methods do not significantly compromise the magazine's ability to retain and function, to a certain extent, with 223 Remington Ammo.

Don't forget....Alexander Arms promoted and advertised their "new upper in 50 Beowulf" (back in about 2002) as being perfectly compatible with any AR15 FOW's lower and magazines.

Rich

As I've said in the 3498734987 other threads you polluted with your copy/paste: this is not as simple as saying "223 work in it". The fact that I can toast bread with my car engine does NOT make my engine a toaster. It's still an engine. Even if it works better as a toaster than as an engine, and even if it works better as a toaster than your toaster, it's still and engine.

It is not a weak legal position to "take to just bend mag lips, change a follower and engrave the magazine", it is not a legal position at all. That is not even what is in question. If it was, it would be very easy to win a court case, based on 40sw 10 round magazines actually being 13 round 9mm in most cases. According to you 40sw mags would all have to be pinned to 8 rounds, since they all work just fine in 9mm, and they are litteraly the same (hint: mecgar doesn't even bother changing the follower or bending the lips, they literraly just engrave 40sw on 13 rounds 9mm). And I know as on the other 3485934 threads you're gonna say "you confuse pistol mags with rifle mags...." No, I'm not, the point stands, you're the only one who can't comprehend it.

The question is which cartridge the magazine was designed and manufactured for. This is what's in the law. Unless you have personnaly manufactured a magazine, your opinion is worth absolutely nothing. Neither is the rcmp's. Why? BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T DESIGNED NOR MANUFACTURED THIS PARTICULAR MAGAZINE!!! And neither have you. The rcmp might contend that whatever company designed and manufactured it intended it for 223. But they don't. And when they do, the usual crown prosecutors just tell them to stfu and give the mags back or plea deal for absolutely no sentence.

You think you'd get the same treatment if you got caught with your unpinned 30 rounds mags? No, and that's because they know they don't have the "reasonnable expectation to obtain a conviction" that's necessary for a prosecutor to go forward. It's just that simple.