Canadian made "black" rifle

Someone just pump out a stamped, cheap, reliable, semi-auto 5.56mm rifle for Christs Sake.
It doesn't have to be complicated. It doesn't need to do 0.0003 MOA.
Just make it light, cheap, NR, take STANAG mags and around $1500 and you won't be able to keep them on the shelves. What are we 25 years post firearms act and noone in Canada has figured this out yet!?
Fack someone please just clone an AR180b but change parts X,Y,Z of the design to not breach copyright and they would be millionaires in a year.
I thought the 102 was going to pull it off but again they missed the whole point. Too much focus on bolt action precision made it require more materials thus more expensive and most important, not consistently reliable.
So close but off by a hundred damned miles and right back to square one again. The middle class, common-man Canadian gun owner majority is still waiting with wallets open.........
 
Last edited:
870P said:
I'm not crazy about an AR-180 type design as they are ugly and chintzy feeling and have never been particularly successful for a reason.

How about a Valmet? Has anybody looked into what it'd cost to acquire the manufacturing rights?

I've always liked the looks and form factor of the FG-42, a modernized, mechanically simplified version would be cool.
Click to expand...

Valmets are not going to happen. They aren't going to ever allow any AK47 clone through the lab on a technicality. It's been addressed by dealers already and shot down. It's a sloppy ass Kalashnikov with a machined receiver anyhow. Machining costs a lot of money. Stamped metal does not so much.
To produce a modern FG-42 would be very expensive, again machining of the receivers, complexity of the design etc etc

I'm thinking along 180b/FAMAE stamped metal style.
The 180 didn't catch on because the AR15 already existed in the USA Sir. It had zero appeal in this country either until the FA came into effect. Would you now say that the AR180b has not caught on in this country? If you could buy one for $1200 or so brand new with full parts support made in Canada today, you're saying you wouldn't buy one?
Everyone and their dog would have one in their locker. You have to put the country we live in into the context of this. If we could have NR AR15's we wouldn't even be having this conversion/this thread would not exist.

So what is the solution? Canada made NR black rifle that's cheap, reliable and 2 MOA accuracy. Light on materials, light on cost, easy to manufacture.
The AR15 is not a robust gun either. It's very reliable but it's also cheap and easy to manufacture, rack grade AR's are 2MOA at best.
If that means a stamped metal receiver then so be it, who cares if it doesn't "feel solid" what are you going to do with it? Pole vaulting or softball? You just hold it and shoot it.

That's why this rifle still does not exist. Look at how we criticize any rifle that can't hollow out a dime at 200 meters; it's instantly flamed, lambasted and boycotted. If you want bolt action accuracy buy a bolt gun. We always think we need to design the next gun to the current US ####ing Army specs or something. This is Canada and I'm a target shooter. It doesn't have to be a german engineering based battle tank, it's needs to be a Toyota Corolla!
 
Last edited:
Travis Bickle said:
I'm thinking along 180b/FAMAE stamped metal style.
The 180 didn't catch on because the AR15 already existed in the USA Sir. It had zero interest in this country either until the FA came into effect. Would you now say that the AR180b has not caught on in this country? If you could buy one for $1200 or so with full parts support made in Canada today, you're saying you wouldn't buy one?
Everyone and their dog would have one in their locker. You have to put the country we live in into the context of this. If we could have NR AR15's we wouldn't even be having this conversion/this thread would not exist.
Click to expand...

I'd certainly consider a 54X style rifle but the AR-180 just doesn't do it for me.

Stamping also isn't particularly cheap unless you're producing in high volume, there's a reason that you don't see too many more recent firearm designs that utilize stamping for the receiver vs extrusions and other methods.
 
I agree with everyone who says it should take as many AR parts as possible (barrel, handguard, stock, grip, trigger/FCG, etc.). Sell completed receivers and leave total price up to the end user.
 
RKRZ said:
I agree with everyone who says it should take as many AR parts as possible (barrel, handguard, stock, grip, trigger/FCG, etc.). Sell completed receivers and leave total price up to the end user.
Click to expand...

That just leaves it open to a guy throwing a 7.5" AR barrel on it and now it's restricted, technically prohib, so they would have to be complete guns if you're going to use AR barrels etc
 
the Dakota kid said:
Or just clone the m78. I wonder if it's even still trademarked...
Click to expand...

870P said:
Somebody would done it already if it were that simple.

I'm fairly sure you'd need to buy the right to the Valmet name in order for it to be exempt from being prohibited.
Click to expand...

Don't even go there.
You risk having the real Valmets reclassified.
If that happens, you will become the most hated man on this board!
 
870P said:
I'd certainly consider a 54X style rifle but the AR-180 just doesn't do it for me.

Stamping also isn't particularly cheap unless you're producing in high volume, there's a reason that you don't see too many more recent firearm designs that utilize stamping for the receiver vs extrusions and other methods.
Click to expand...

High volume is what we need in this country for a NR black rifle Sir.
Not 15 rifles every 6 months on exclusive runs. We need a simple, cheap/affordable, light and reliable NR semi auto in 5.56mm and we need lots of them. If it can be all of those and still keep it under $1300 they can slam out 10 thousand a year and eventually flood the country, two for every man woman and child PAL holder.
That's why stamped can be cheaper. It will always be cheaper than milling, casting and forging especially like you said in high volume, which is what we need. Look at the people throwing money as hard/fast as they can at the 102 despite it's inconsistent reliability and feeding problems etc etc It will be a long long time before they ever catch up on demand and the product is still in the grey questionable as far as I can see. Pumping out 20 rifles every 6 months or whatever. Ain't nobody got time for that. And the price tag climbed up to near $2K after tax anyhow.
 
condomboy said:
That just leaves it open to a guy throwing a 7.5" AR barrel on it and now it's restricted, technically prohib, so they would have to be complete guns if you're going to use AR barrels etc
Click to expand...

Agreed. The closer it becomes to an AR the closer it comes to "being" an AR at the lab....
Mags yes, FCG yes, barrel yes but it would have to stop around there I would think.
 
Travis Bickle said:
Look at the people throwing money as hard/fast as they can at the 102 despite it's inconsistent reliability and feeding problems etc etc It will be a long long time before they ever catch up on demand and the product is still in the grey questionable as far as I can see. Pumping out 20 rifles every 6 months or whatever. Ain't nobody got time for that. And the price tag climbed up to near $2K after tax anyhow.
Click to expand...

20 rifles in 6 months? (Current run seems to be about 600)

Near $2K? I guess that depends on what your definition of near, is. (I figure $1836.45, all in)

Are you talking about the 102? Or something else?
 
Travis Bickle said:
High volume is what we need in this country for a NR black rifle Sir.
Not 15 rifles every 6 months on exclusive runs. We need a simple, cheap/affordable, light and reliable NR semi auto in 5.56mm and we need lots of them. If it can be all of those and still keep it under $1300 they can slam out 10 thousand a year and eventually flood the country, two for every man woman and child PAL holder.
That's why stamped can be cheaper. It will always be cheaper than milling, casting and forging especially like you said in high volume, which is what we need. Look at the people throwing money as hard/fast as they can at the 102 despite it's inconsistent reliability and feeding problems etc etc It will be a long long time before they ever catch up on demand and the product is still in the grey questionable as far as I can see. Pumping out 20 rifles every 6 months or whatever. Ain't nobody got time for that. And the price tag climbed up to near $2K after tax anyhow.
Click to expand...

I doubt the Canadian market can generate the kind of demand that would give stamped recievers a production cost advantage, when that's not the case even the U.S. market.

Consider why U.S. made AKs cost at least as much as equivalent AR-15s?

The only domestically produced design I could see selling in large volume in our market would be a quality nonrestricted almost-an-AR-15 at a regular AR-15 price.
 
I love my Famae SG-540. Only downfall is that there is nothing compatible with it. I've often wished for a very similar design that would take ar-15 trigger groups, ar pistol grips and standard ar-15 barrels. Ditch the piston system and make it DI to lose some weight.
Put out a standard version with a basic mil-spec trigger, generic barrel, basic handguard and iron sights.
This would give the manufacturer the ability to produce it cheaper by utilizing some already commonly available parts while still giving the consumer the ability to upgrade the main components that most wish to upgrade.
Love my Famae, hate the price and the inability to upgrade triggers and barrels.
Maybe something like this could be done?
 
Who gives a F... wheter the receiver is stamped, milled or forged in the volcano of mount doom!!!! The AR-180b already has a NR FRT. Any other gun you come up with will not only take 2 years to get an FRT, but it'll also run the risk of being restricted, and then it's an automatic financial failure.

The AR180b doesn't sell in US because the AR15 was there before it. In Canada the AR15 is literally inexistent for 96% of PAL holders (if my memory is correct). The success of the BCL102 is proof that the canadian market will gobble up just about any amount of black semi-auto NR rifle. When all is said and done, when you compare a 102 with a similarly priced restricted AR10, the AR10 will come out ahead, yet sales of AR10 are dismal in canada while BCL can't produce the 102 fast enough.

At this point I believe the only question is who will bring a cheap (sub 900$) black semi-auto NR 223 rifle to market first. Whoever does will make a bundle. Whoever comes second will barely sell. And going for a design that already has a NR FRT will beat the competition by a year or 2. So I wouldn't be surprised if BCL was already working on their own version of AR180b.

And if you want a 3000$+ NR semi-auto, there's the MV. It's already available, and from what I understand they sell only a couple a year.
 
I have to admit, that I'd only be interested, if something was developed in the 7.62 families.

5.56 - zero interest, for me, anyways. I am likely not in a majority group.
 
Ar180 lower, I am hesitant and think would be a deal killer for me, but interested to see what comes of this regardless.
 
Last edited:
jiffx2781 said:
I love my Famae SG-540. Only downfall is that there is nothing compatible with it. I've often wished for a very similar design that would take ar-15 trigger groups, ar pistol grips and standard ar-15 barrels. Ditch the piston system and make it DI to lose some weight.
Put out a standard version with a basic mil-spec trigger, generic barrel, basic handguard and iron sights.
This would give the manufacturer the ability to produce it cheaper by utilizing some already commonly available parts while still giving the consumer the ability to upgrade the main components that most wish to upgrade.
Love my Famae, hate the price and the inability to upgrade triggers and barrels.
Maybe something like this could be done?
Click to expand...

Agreed strongly.
Make some components like FCG and barrel AR15 compatible and you would have a near winner as long as cost could be kept low.
Keep it cheap, keep it simple, keep it light on materials.
 
VinnyQC said:
Who gives a F... wheter the receiver is stamped, milled or forged in the volcano of mount doom!!!! The AR-180b already has a NR FRT. Any other gun you come up with will not only take 2 years to get an FRT, but it'll also run the risk of being restricted, and then it's an automatic financial failure.

The AR180b doesn't sell in US because the AR15 was there before it. In Canada the AR15 is literally inexistent for 96% of PAL holders (if my memory is correct). The success of the BCL102 is proof that the canadian market will gobble up just about any amount of black semi-auto NR rifle. When all is said and done, when you compare a 102 with a similarly priced restricted AR10, the AR10 will come out ahead, yet sales of AR10 are dismal in canada while BCL can't produce the 102 fast enough.

At this point I believe the only question is who will bring a cheap (sub 900$) black semi-auto NR 223 rifle to market first. Whoever does will make a bundle. Whoever comes second will barely sell. And going for a design that already has a NR FRT will beat the competition by a year or 2. So I wouldn't be surprised if BCL was already working on their own version of AR180b.

And if you want a 3000$+ NR semi-auto, there's the MV. It's already available, and from what I understand they sell only a couple a year.
Click to expand...

I'm good with the 180b. It's an excellent rifle. I owned two over the years.
Only reason I sold them was because complete lack of critical parts availability.
It could be produced for very little. Especially with the polymer lowers. It would be a licensing problem though if it were a reproduction. Armalite still owns it I believe.
That would likely drive up the cost (royalties) I would assume.
Not sure what else people want in a simple, cheap, reliable semi auto in this country? Hell it took AR15 FCG and mags. I'm thinking a lot of people who hate on the rifle have likely never shot one or owned one for a period of time. Just parroting posts from this website mostly.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom