Canadian made "black" rifle

I totally support this and can believe it can happen, I brought this up with Cadex a while ago but they are busy as hell. We can design a canadian rifle
 
I believe if a manufacturer went to the the RCMP first and said hey whats kosher with you guys, they might save a lot of hassle. It has to have a left or right charging handle.
 
Going by what I have read a lower that takes AK mags is what we want and have maybe a AR upper? Or does that still cause RCMP issues? Or make a RCMP friendly Galil ?
 
Sunchild2071 said:
20 rifles in 6 months? (Current run seems to be about 600)

Near $2K? I guess that depends on what your definition of near, is. (I figure $1836.45, all in)

Are you talking about the 102? Or something else?
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Aye the 102.
$1840 is close enough to $2K to be "near $2K" for me.

Anyhow, it's clearly not a proven product yet. It has quality control issues, very tight chambers leading to proven reliability issues, rifle to rifle inconsistency, rifle to rifle accuracy results.
There are other design flaws which turn me off it but they are personal opinions so I'll spare repeating myself.
I know the party line in Canada is to never critique a new NR that was hyped up to be the second coming of Christ answer to our prayers yadda yadda lol I like to call a spade a spade and I don't like the taste of kool-aide....
 
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Travis Bickle said:
Aye the 102.
$1840 is close enough to $2K to be "near $2K" for me.

Anyhow, it's clearly not a proven product yet. It has quality control issues, very tight chambers leading to proven reliability issues, rifle to rifle inconsistency, rifle to rifle accuracy results.
There are other design flaws which turn me off it but they are personal opinions so I'll spare repeating myself.
I know the party line in Canada is to never critique a new NR that was hyped up to be the second coming of Christ answer to our prayers yadda yadda lol I like to call a spade a spade.
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I have one... and I agree with every word you said.
gotta spend money trying to make it work out of the box. very cool and fits the niche but reliability for me is #1... number #2 of course is the "match grade 9 pound barrel"
hardly any match results worth posting. imo the barrel is the biggest turd on the rifle.
 
Call this thread TL:DR, well mostly skimmed.

It may be sheer vanity, but I want something that is as close to an AK as I can get, and without having Valmet money, here I am!
 
Ottawa said:
I believe if a manufacturer went to the the RCMP first and said hey whats kosher with you guys, they might save a lot of hassle. It has to have a left or right charging handle.
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No, that's not how it works.

Ottawa said:
Going by what I have read a lower that takes AK mags is what we want and have maybe a AR upper? Or does that still cause RCMP issues? Or make a RCMP friendly Galil ?
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Doesn't matter what people want. If the lab says it's an AK, then it's prohib, period. If the lab says it's an AR15, then it's restricted, period.

In general, if it can mate with an AR15 lower, then it's an AR15 lower, and if it can mate with an AR15 upper, then it's an AR15 lower. The definition of "can mate" is the only fungible area. Our common, reasonnable definitio of "can mate" is "when installed it'll shoot the caliber", but the rcmp definition is "if it doesn't take more than 2 days of work with specialized equipment to modify and can be installed and then shoot the calibre".

Anyway, AR180b ftw. Currently that's the way to a commercial success.
 
s3xspert11 said:
I have one... and I agree with every word you said.
gotta spend money trying to make it work out of the box. very cool and fits the niche but reliability for me is #1... number #2 of course is the "match grade 9 pound barrel"
hardly any match results worth posting. imo the barrel is the biggest turd on the rifle.
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Bingo. All weight, pointless extra material/cost and no delivery for it. That is my personal opinion of the design flaw.
Your #1 is my main issue with it as well currently.
 
A few random thoughts here...

First and foremost, this is just me thinking out loud, and trying to light a fire under CanAm.
I absolutely do not work for or speak for CanadaAmmo. Yet... :)
So I am most certainly not discussing funding.

What started as a note to Chris (probably could have made it a PM...) has morphed into an exchange of ideas, which is great.
But the cartoon of the Homer-mobile has a lot of truth to it.
It is easy to let a project get out of hand.
As I see it, the simpler, the batter.
Certainly sooner, and cheaper.

There are several ways to produce a receiver, some practical, some not so much.
--Old school forgings like old bolt actions are very expensive to set up. So a deal breaker.
--Stampings are also very expensive to set up, but cheap to hammer out large numbers. Not viable for this project.
--Machined aluminum receivers are more expensive than stampings in large numbers, but FAR cheaper in small numbers.
--Extruded receivers combined with machining like the MagPul Masada / Bushmaster ACR could be the best option.

I mentioned using a standard AR-15 barrel with a beefier barrel extension, as the AR-15 spec design is prone to cracking when using a larger case.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=ar-1..._FrJLXAhVJrVQKHeWtDqMQsAQIMA&biw=1252&bih=604
A beefier bolt head and matching barrel extension means that cartridges up to .450 Bushmaster could be used.

It also eliminates the issue that Condomboy raised.
condomboy said:
That just leaves it open to a guy throwing a 7.5" AR barrel on it and now it's restricted, technically prohib, so they would have to be complete guns if you're going to use AR barrels etc
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Regarding various cartridge choices, and families of cartridges, I have pondered using different magwell adapters and such.
(In fact, that is why I have followed the DT-MDR so closely, as I had considered a similar idea years ago, but did nothing with...)
However, in reality, I would rather keep it simple and see it happen, rather than dream about the "perfect" gun never built.

As far as a new 180B, that could be viable, if it was done well.
I have long thought that the AR-180B is a clever design done very poorly.
To be blunt, the common version is a pile of poo. (I have heard the Sterling version (Made in England many years ago) was quite good.)
If we could get any gun without restrictive laws, it would be a $500 gun at the most.
And yet, it has some clever features.
If it was re-designed from the ground up, it could be a winner.
 
QC issues.

Ok, in some. I'm running great.

Regardless.

Change those parts out! Just like is suggested in this thread. The suggestion to use mediocre parts, so they can be upgraded, is mentioned a few times. Go back a few posts, where a Famae is mentioned, but the lack of interchangeable parts is a negative. Then you say you agree.

How much is the Famae? How much is the BCL?

So what makes that interchangeability desirable in a rifle, so that one is good for that reason, and the next is not? And why such an aftermarket of interchangeable AR parts?

The will be no answer to this thread. Because all you have to do is read a few threads here and see opinions all over the spectrum.

I think it falls into the " some of the people, some of the time" category.

Would be nice if this is bears fruit. But there will always be the naysayers.

Me, like I said, something in 7.62 would perk my interest. Love my BCL. Hope the few that have issues get it resolved. Other new rifles seem to have been given credit for Gen1 teething issues. But not the BCL 102. I'm aware of former NEA history. This is a new rifle. Teething issues.

All credit to those who brought up this idea. Even more if they carry it to a production model. So they can get ripped up by the CGN community. Gotta have some big balls, to step into that ring, IMO.
 
Oooorrr.... you could convince Valmet to start making guns again, specifically the M78. ;)

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tootall said:
However, in reality, I would rather keep it simple and see it happen, rather than dream about the "perfect" gun never built.

As far as a new 180B, that could be viable, if it was done well.
I have long thought that the AR-180B is a clever design done very poorly.
To be blunt, the common version is a pile of poo. (I have heard the Sterling version (Made in England many years ago) was quite good.)
If we could get any gun without restrictive laws, it would be a $500 gun at the most.
And yet, it has some clever features.
If it was re-designed from the ground up, it could be a winner.
Click to expand...

It has to be simple. The Homer Mobile is a good analogy. The problem with bringing this up to market research at consumer opinion level, is that everyone wants it to have the specific features they like in a semi auto black rifle.
These drive up cost drastically if they are to be incorporated into the base design.
The thing is our market already has a lot of NR black rifles that have all the tactical, ###y, weekend operator features and gimmick selling points.
XCR has the multi caliber quick change feature.
The SL8 has the German engineering/accuracy thing going.
The MV is a NR freak AR15 clone built for precision.
The Tavor is a reliable bullet hose that can mount any plastic contraption one desires.
Swiss Arms/Famae SG542 are great reliable NR black rifles
CZ858/WR762 is simple, rugged, reliable shoots affordable surplus ammo.

There are already a s**t ton of options in the Canadian market for NR black rifles. Some of them are even designed for those odd ducks that insist a semi auto black rifle hollow out dimes for whatever reason (MV and SL8) The ONLY thing all of these have in common is they're expensive with limited and or no parts support. Their price putting them out of reach of at least 50% of gun owners. The only one that I would consider affordable is the new WR762 at around $1300 but that price is at current assembly between Canadian made barrels/receivers and old CZ parts. If they had to 100% start manufacturing all parts in Canada due to supply line shortcomings, price would/will surely rise high. Plus it's in 7.62x39 vice 5.56mm.

The only thing we don't have as an option really in this country right now for a NR black rifle is a 5.56mm s**t simple, reliable rifle with a good parts support for under $1300.
You said it best Sir, the AR180b is a very clever design. It would have to be "redone" anyhow to avoid having to pay royalties to Armalite.
So in that process the chance to improve on the design would be there.
The only place to improve that rifle though in my opinion would be a more solid way of closing the rear receiver of the rifle. Same system but with a spring loaded hook latch added to it similar to the FN FAL would be ideal, simple and keep costs down (most important).
That and move the cocking handle to the left side of the receiver.
 
--And completely eliminate the polymer lower hinge.
--And replace the proprietary scope mount with a proper Pic rail. (I helped a CGN member by rewelding a base place back on after the two tiny spot welds broke free)
--And redesign the trunnion mount to stamped upper.

The patent is probably expired or very close to expiring now.
~Around 17 years, isnt it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite_AR-18#Recent_developments
 
tootall said:
--And completely eliminate the polymer lower hinge.
--And replace the proprietary scope mount with a proper Pic rail. (I helped a CGN member by rewelding a base place back on after the two tiny spot welds broke free)
--And redesign the trunnion mount to stamped upper.

The patent is probably expired or very close to expiring now.
~Around 17 years, isnt it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite_AR-18#Recent_developments
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Agreed in some aspect to points above.
I'm an iron sight shooter so it's moot for me but in this day and age it is not hard to mount a simple rail on top. It's a must for today's shooting crowd so it definitely has to be there to make it appeal to more folk and sell more product.
I'm indifferent on the lower personally. I owned two and put many thousands of rounds down between the two and never had an issue. It would have to go though as you said anyway because there is too much myth and stygma built up around the bad batch of early receivers which were not as strong and some did break if unintentionally abused. Polymer would be very very cheap which I think is the all around ultimate goal here. Perhaps a better designed lower hinge system of aluminum mounted in the polymer at that critical point?
I'm indifferent to barrel mount system of the current design. I've never seen a single problem with the design as it was. Unless the purpose is to be able to make it interchangeable with AR15 barrel mounting system? Would likely increase cost/may raise hackle in the Fed Labs.
What would you propose in its place?

Not sure on the patent expiration but that would be VERY good news.
Hell if I had enough money I'd fund the f**king project myself to get a proto-type to the lab. Where's the filthy rich Canadian Gunnutz when you really need them eh? ;)
 
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If you guys make this gun, you should also design it in 7.62x54R and takes either PSL or Dragunov mags. Then people can build modernized Dragunov clones out of them. .308 Would be fine too actually.
 
Like most people I would be interested in a sub $1000.00 rifle that will shoot 5.56 or 223 wylde. Hopefully able to shoot 1.5 moa ish with hand loads like my rack grade ar.
 
Always wanted to know how hard it would be to turn the AK in an AR, instead of a piston use a telescoping tube to feed the carrier hot gas in conjunction with an AR bolt and barrel it could be pretty accurate.

Would have to redesign the carrier but it would be relatively simple and robust blending the best of both designs. The recoil spring could sit on the sides of the carrier like an ar180. Jam it all into a simple extruded aluminium upper and pin it to the top of an Ar180b lower reciever
 
I think that people would like to see both 5.56 and x39 based rounds in this "Homerrifle"

The problem is the AR bolt is weak when using X39 based cartridges, so if designing a new or updated rifle for use with x39 based rounds would be to either upsize the bolt head to the ar-10 size or design a 3 lug triangular bolt the correct size ALA Leader T2/M17s.

Re-enforced poly lower at a minimum, but i think most would prefer aluminum.

I have nothing against the 180b gas system but how hard would it be to add a gas key to the 180 bolt and be able to use AR Barrels, gas tubes and blocks?
 
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