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Thread: Wk180-C technical questions & answers only

  1. #11
    Wolverine Supplies - CGN Sponsor Mr Wolverine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironheart View Post

    Just seen the list of the dealers that will be stocking these......and a ton are now accepting order.......are younsire that there is going to be enough going around for the first order that will be coming out in 12 to 14 weeks? Or are all these dealers just going to be getting the trickle of the 30 to 50 per week after the initial 300?


    Certainly the first shipment will not take care of all the orders we have received. The first shipment will be in 12 to 16 weeks, I do not expect to unpack, check serial numbers do random QC checks then repack and ship all 300 over night, this will need to be spread over a few days at least. Basically this shipment, 300 units will cover what we sold in the first five hours. The first shipment is only part of our initial order of 1,000 units, after 16 weeks I expect to receive a shipment every two weeks. I have to work with Kodiak to see what this number will be, as orders have exceeded my wildest expectations. We are coming close to selling our initial order of 1,000 units as I type this. I will have a much better idea of delivery times after I talk with Kodiak next week. We will have to ramp up production to keep up with demand but I am determined that I will not let QC suffer just to speed up deliveries. Once we reach 1,000 units we will only take a $200 deposit. Dealers are already talking of placing repeat orders. We will ship in the same order that we received them in.
    Last edited by Mr Wolverine; 02-08-2018 at 11:28 AM.
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  2. #12
    Wolverine Supplies - CGN Sponsor Mr Wolverine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lmar View Post
    John,

    Is it possible for you to release a dumbed down external model of the firearm in whatever CAD system Kodiac used in the design?
    The rationale for this is as follows:

    Have a defeatured CAD model showing the external geometry of the firearm would allow more people to build custom accessories off of the original external dimensions - rather than having to reverse engineer the gun once they had it in their hands.
    I would do this to take advantage of the hype you have generated (a good thing) and have 3rd party accessory makers generating custom parts that are compatible with the original design.

    Again, the defeatured CAD file (depending on how you configure it) would eliminate any disclosure of proprietary information - while allowing designers to start designing adapters and such.
    Alternatively, will you be supplying a technical package (drawings) of basic dimensions that people would be able to model components to match.

    L
    You raise a very good point but I will need to talk to Steve at Kodiak first. We had planned on making a line of extras ourselves, they can often be more profitable than the firearm in question. The demand has been so great that we may simply have to focus on rifle production only.

    Maybe we should have aspiring manufactures of acessaries approach us first, if their product meets our QC standards we could endorse their product and maybe even offer it in a package form with a rifle. I need to think on this.

    I have to be cautious, I have already heard of someone who plans to reverse engineer the WK180-C and sell a copy!



    Question: is there enough "meat" around the bolt handle slot to accomodate a riveted plate (with rubber insert) such as the SIG 556 uses to keep out stuff from the gun internals?
    Just asking as it seems to be a theoretical sticking point for people to pull the trigger (fuguratively) on purchasing the rifle
    Yes I think something like that could be achieved.

    One technical question; The ar 180b had a bit of play between the upper and lower reciever. Not a show stopper, but will the WK180-C be able to be a little bit tighter in this respect?
    We recognise this and we are looking at ways to address it.

    However will a dust/dirt cover be available for the left side of the receiver as an add on in the future? That way the charging handle could be put on the right side of the receiver and the left side would be closed. Just as an option.
    Dust covers are certainly something we need to look into.

    Will uppers from the Sterling and Howa AR 180's fit?
    I believe they should. If you have one please e-mail me.

    Regarding the Bolts:

    Is Kodiak making them in house or are they an off the shelf item such as an ACR bolt?
    These are not an off the shelf item

    Are the bolts following the AR18/180 design and compatable?
    Yes to general design but not compatible.

    Is the firing pin the same as the AR18/180?
    No

    Will a standard AR15 A2 type stock adapt to the rear of the receiver as it will come?
    Or will it need an additional proprietary adapter to fit an A2 style stock?
    I see no reason why it would not fit on our "standard" adapter as shown here but the LOP would be long.

    Wonder if a DD RIS II would fit over this gas block. hmmm... Mr. Wolverrine, could you answer this since you stock DD products?
    The DD RIS II is not available as a stand alone unit, the end plate will not index on the WK180-C receiver.
    Last edited by Mr Wolverine; 02-08-2018 at 07:04 PM.
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  3. #13
    Wolverine Supplies - CGN Sponsor Mr Wolverine's Avatar
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    Gas cylinder dimensions, I don't think this will change. This is straight from Kodiak.

    Handguard Front

    Gas block front with screw

    Gas block front without screw

    There is a .015" clearance between the gas block and the inside of the handguard. Any more space and it will cut into the rails or weaken the cylinder walls.

    I would strongly advise that customers wait until they have the rifle in their hands before they go buying aftermarket bits... They may find that the stuff that is designed specifically for the rifle fits and functions better than after market stuff meant for a completely different rifle.

    Burying the gas system on a piston gun with an AR rail height profile has always proven challenging... just look at ACRs, or HK 416s... most have raised their rails to accommodate piston systems and thus have problems putting handguards over the block while maintaining the rail height. In fact, when H&K were competing for the M4 replacement program with their 416, they petitioned NATO to change the specific rail height for the NATO STANAG 4694 Accessory Rail standards, citing "better accommodation for cheekweld and site picture"... the reality was they wanted to raise the rail to suit the gas system. needless to say, NATO refused and they didn't win the bid with the 416 (for a lot of reasons aside from that).
    Most piston gun designs will just opt to not bury the gas block under the handguard as it's simpler to just cover the piston rod.

    With all that said; This handguard will fit on an AR15, but I have my doubts about any old AR15 handguard fitting over this gas block.

    Note on the image; the dimensions are Metric on the bottom and inch on the top in [ ].

    Hope that helps.
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  4. #14
    Wolverine Supplies - CGN Sponsor Mr Wolverine's Avatar
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    How is the gas block attached? If I were to change the barrel, is it easy to remove? (Clamp style might be the best)
    Gas block will be cross pinned and have a locating screw

    Will the 7.62x39 version require a new FRT?
    That should just be a "Child" entry which is only a formality and is usually completed in a few days.

    I really hope that a dust cover becomes available. Will pay extra for one.
    That is not a priority for us at this time, we must remain focused on producing rifles.

    So the next big question is... After you've done the 7.62x39, how about a pistol caliber carbine version in 7.62x25... (maybe 9mm and 10mm too I guess...) Can and will you make it? :D
    Other rifle calibers are under development, I have no plans for a pistol caliber but 7.62 TT intrigues me.

    Can this platform be made into a 5.45x39 rifle?
    There is no reason why not.

    Are the people that bought one on the first day going to find out if they are getting one of the first 300?
    All I can say if your order was placed before 4 PM CST you have a good chance. I do not expect to receive 300 in one shipment, much more likely to see a pallet load at a time so the first rifles could be in customers hands before we have the last of the 300 here. By that time all been good we will be having weekly shipments.

    The Ace original skeleton stock which is for the 180b with a stormwerkz adapter and comes in folding or fixed variants. Not sure if that adapter will be compatible with the WK180-C but time will tell.
    I believe it should but I can't confirm at this time as I do not have a stormwerkz adapter here.

    You guys posted all these pictures on your other page about stocks...handguards.....none of the ones pictured are in the links you posted.....could you confirm what brand handguards and stocks these are and if they will bolt right on or need an adapter!
    Any stock other than something using an AR15 buffer tube thread will need a stock adapter, nothing other than maybe the Stormwerkz, is available. Hand guards will have to attach to a regular (or replacement type) AR 15 barrel nut, clear the gas block (dimensions provided) and not have "wings" that fit round an AR15 receiver. The photos posted are mock ups to show the potential of what could be done.

    A long shot I know, but any chances on a more retro/cold war looking design? Integrated front sight, folding stock, polymer handguard?
    Given time anything is possible but first priority is to build rifles and lots of them.

    Also to touch on dust covers, something like the FN Minimi or FNC would be a great solution.
    Good idea, I will look into it but right now we can not afford delays or increased costs.

    I've got a pair of Sterling gloss black handguards I'd like to be able to put on another 180.
    That would require some custom work.
    Last edited by Mr Wolverine; 02-09-2018 at 07:58 PM.
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  5. #15
    Wolverine Supplies - CGN Sponsor Mr Wolverine's Avatar
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    Asked if there was an accuracy report yet.
    We have not tested this rifle with production barrels, that will be in 2 to 3 weeks. Most of my testing to date has been to confirm operational reliability, in this she has surpassed my wildest dreams. Accuracy testing with a “no name” barrel with the short gas system has been carried out on a limited scale, only about 200 rds of various brands. Results have varied from 5/8 inch to 4 inches (5 rds groups, prone at 100 meters with a quality scope) I think it reasonable to assume 2 MOA + or -. I will post more results when I test the new barrel.

    Will the gun look just like the picture?
    The pictures at the bottom of my first post are very close to what I expect production rifles to look like but with a slightly thinner profile barrel as I am aiming to reduce weight.

    Could these be converted to look like an original AR180. Will an AR180 handguard fit, as well as a buttstock?
    Anything is possible but this would require some creative work. You need to talk to a custom shop, suggest you try RWA, they might be interested.

    Possibility of a .300blk barrel in the future?
    Most certainly, yes.

    Con you make the 7.62x39 version with a chrome lined barrel, because you know everyone is going to be shooting surplus or Tulammo, bimetallic jackets and steel cores...
    We will be making her in 7.62 x39 and I personal think in 7.62 x 39 a chrome lined barrel would be a good idea not sure if we could chrome the gas system.

    I was just wondering if it would be worth it to tap two holes on either side of the receiver to accommodate a simple plate that could seal one side of the receiver. The plate could be designed and sold later, or 3d printed, but at least the machining is there so its just a drop in accessory rather than something that requires the owner to take it to a gunsmith.
    Yes and no, you have a valid point but I have to reconfirm to my original concept of an in-expensive, reliable rifle and now I have a big commitment to deliver on time. I didn't set out to design the worlds next assault rifle, if I had, I wouldn't have overlooked such a basic concept as a dust cover. I have well over 1,000 customers ( even allowing for dealer orders , at least 900) who have purchased her as is with no dust covers. I think it safe to say that you will not see dust covers as a factory option for some time, at least for this year and maybe not at all. .

    The WK180-C bolt carrier rides on two guide rods each with it's own return spring. I believe that this greatly enhances performance due to the large clearances between the bolt carrier and receiver. Admittedly if debris find there way into the barrel extension it could lead to a malfunction but with the bolt forward this is unlikely. The trigger group is the most venerable area but even admitting that you will need to pack the snow or dust in to give problems. Two strips of electrical tape will keep the action clean until the rifle is required for use. Yes I know my "Red Green" fix will be laughed at, but I give you the WK180-C for what she is, an affordable no frills rifle to enjoy, not run off to fight WW III with.

    I see your using 6061 for the receiver why not use 7075 which from my understanding is probably a better choice for the receiver ?
    7075 is harder (more brittle?) more expensive to purchase and to machine. 6061 will do the job. For $995 I have to watch every cent. We could use steel or titanium but not for $995.

    So is that the final design or will it be more like a AR lower that is beveled at the beavertail.
    The WK180-C receiver is a copy of the original AR180-B for FRT purposes, we have no plans for changes.

    Is the gas block similar to the Adams Arms micro gas block? I ask because there's a lot of rails that will fit with that gas block installed.
    I have no idea, you will have to compare it to the drawing of our gas block posted here.

    Will a "carbine length" handguard fit this rifle? I noticed the handguard is pretty short.
    Production rifles will have an 11 inch hand guard

    I guess you have to remove the hand guard to get into the piston? If so can the hand guard not be longer and a section of the top be removed?
    With our standard (11 inch) hand guard the piston can be accessed from the front. If an extra long hand guard was fitted this access would be difficult, a lift up hatch would help, or maybe a piston assemble tool would need to be made up to avoid having to remove the hand guard for access to the piston.

    Ref Serial numbers. Will they include a Year and Country code? (ie 18CAN1234) ?
    Correct, country prefix ##### Year

    Someone had previously mentioned the use of a Maple Leaf on the side, would it be an outline, or full relief?
    Undecided on this, will have a small discrete Wolverine logo.

    Why is the bolt handle located to the rear of the bolt? On an actual ar180 the bolt handle is located near the front. If that’s done with the wk180 you can at least reduce the size of the gap on either side of the rifle if you cant put a dust cover on it.
    That was done because we put in an ambidextrous charging handle. We needed to move it back on the left side to accommodate for the bolt cam. For ease of machining we decided to make both sides symmetrical to save cost.

    Was your website accurately tracking rifles sales? Right befopre I placed my order I entered a quantity of 1500 rifles. The website said 850 give or take were available. Would I be safe to assume my order number?
    That should be pretty close.

    I see you mentioned you will be stocking spare parts to service the rifles. Would we eventually see some spare parts kits for sale similar to the old field repair kits Armalite used to make, some day down the road? I understand the rifles come first and foremost, this is just a thought for the future.
    I already have this plan in the back of my mind, a field repair kit is a good idea.

    Owner an original ar 180 B, can I buy a receiver only,if available, and reassemble my gun with the original parts
    We have no plan on selling receivers only at this time as all production must go into complete rifles.

    Are the rifles shipping with a "Milspec" or "Commercial" sized buffer tube?
    They should be Milspec.

    Hmmmm will there be a version of the WK180 where we can purchase the barrel, reciever and action then order whatever grips, stocks, etc to attach ourselves?
    We have nothing planned like that at this time.

    On the old AR180B rifles, the cam pin runs back and forth the length of the upper in a sheet metal track spot welded to the inside of the upper receiver. I am assuming the cam pin track in the WK180-C is machined into the side of the aluminum upper? How does this area seem to be holding up?
    Correct, looks like she is holding up well.

    I was also wondering about the steel track that the Cam pin rides in to lock. Also on the old 180b the piston rod rode in a hole drilled in the trunnion which is hardened. Is there a steel sleeve insert for the piston rod? Are these the areas of wear you noticed? Thanks, Mark
    On production guns there will be a steel insert for the piston, no wear to really speak of.

    Do you need to remove the hand guard to access gas system? Can a longer hand guard be made with milled away access to gas system? I'm thinking how the L85 gas system is covered but accessible.
    As the piston is accessed at the front end of the gas block it can be accessed with no problem with standard length hand guards which is how we will be shipping guns. If the owner wants to fit a longer hand guard it will require a “custom hatch” or opening to alow access to the piston or some kind of long custom made piston disassemble tool.

    Will the rail sections on the receiver be in the same plane as the rail section on the top of the hand guard?
    Yes, we have modified the upper so in all production rifles it should match AR15 hand guards.

    Out of curiosity, why did you go with a AR180-inspired bolt and bolt carrier group instead of an AR15 BCG? Asking in relation to the Daewoo K1A1 that uses a more AR15-esque bolt but using an AR180-esque spring and spring guide rod
    The WK180-C lower is identical to the AR-180B, if we had designed a new top half we would have been over budget. Remember the first priority was to retail under $1,000.00

    Sorry to beat the bush, but after the Galil image, would Wolverine be interested in doing a "Dust Cover" Accessory / something that is a seperate purchase? Similar to butt stock adapter.
    This is certainly something we could look at in the future.

    The Wk-180c has been described as a recreational plinker, but should we expect that it can handle the "rigors" of competition?
    I am not involved in 3-gun or IPSC matches yet , but would like to get into it. I know that the production rifle is still underway, but perhaps someone can educate me off the bat?
    (ex: Based on the experience of those who compete, based on knowledge of how the AR 180, and the specs and improvements of the WK-180C?)
    Personally I think she would equate herself well, to claim any more at this time would be speculation.

    Will you make any left ejecting models? If this project ever goes El-EightyFive, southpaws would rejoice
    I think she is pretty well ambidextrous as she is, I am a southpaw and I have no problem with the right hand ejecting. So no I don’t think we will.

    On delivery and understanding that you are STARTING your initial shipment of 300 units in 12-16 weeks, that puts us into June delivery on that, then I read that you'd be shipping 30-50 per week following that, so assuming 40/week and 700 still outstanding to be shipped in the first 1000, that means an additional ~18 weeks or out into October to finish up the initial 1000. If I were to place a "pre-order" with a 3rd party dealer or yourselves - Am I correct in assuming that a NEW order today will have a November/December 2018 delivery date?
    You are correct, orders from this point forward should be shipped in the last quarter of this year, assuming everything goes as planned, which it never does.  When production starts I plan to post regular updates of how deliveries are progressing, I appreciate that customers like to be kept informed.

    Is there a PDF of the owners manual available?
    No, not at this time.

    When would you expect to have available an Operating and Service Manual with Illustrated Parts List?
    Which parts of the existing AR180B manual should I already consider not applicable?
    If everything stays as planned we should be shipping the first guns in May, I would expect to have the operators manual ready at that time.
    Basically all the parts in the manual relating to the lower should be the same, but there are big changes in the upper although the basic operating principal is the same.
    Last edited by Mr Wolverine; 02-28-2018 at 02:49 PM.
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  6. #16
    Wolverine Supplies - CGN Sponsor Mr Wolverine's Avatar
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    We will keep this to technical questions and answers, feel free to post questions here but I will edit for everyone's convenience.

    Please read the previous pages before asking questions.

    If you are asking a question that has already been answered I will delete it in order to keep this area concise.


    Thank you for your cooperation.
    Last edited by Mr Wolverine; 02-12-2018 at 09:43 AM.
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  7. #17
    Wolverine Supplies - CGN Sponsor Mr Wolverine's Avatar
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    I was only questioning the EXACT pinning method. Standard Taper pin? Roll pin? Blind pinned? Perhaps I missed the exact answer somewhere?
    Thanks
    Gas block is pinned with parallel pin and a locating screw

    What is the ideal height-over-bore for iron sights/optics? Same as AR15? Lower?
    The ideal height is to keep your sights as low as possible to insure a good check weld, this will vary slightly according to your physical build and personal shooting technique. The WK180-C will have the same receiver rail to bore height as an AR15

    I just saw a picture in an article, and there seems to be a small step between the two picatinny rails.
    Is this expected to be in the production run, and what effect might it have on iron sights
    This has already been corrected.

    Would the WK 180-C be a viable platform for the DOLOS system (https://pantheonarms.com) or would the piston system not be compatible with it? I'm thinking a quick takedown barrel and folding stock would make this a nice tidy little package
    Although this system looks like it could be custom fitted I am not sure it would be worth while. The WK180C does not use a AR buffer system so a side folding stock can be fitted. I think the take down barrel would work but would need to examine one before I could confirm that.

    What's the height from barrel to the top of the rail? Wondering what kind of buis will work with fsb
    Should be the same as a standard AR15.
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  8. #18
    CGN Ultra frequent flyer #1bcshooter's Avatar
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    What about the part in the new gun laws announced today that manufactures can not classify their own manufactured firearms in & for sale in Canada ?
    large police presence at the Halifax Shopping Mall on Saturday.
    Police said in an email there was "no active shooter situation" but seven youths who had a slingshot were taken into custody.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by #1bcshooter View Post
    What about the part in the new gun laws announced today that manufactures can not classify their own manufactured firearms in & for sale in Canada ?
    Wolverine can go ahead and delete these posts cause it is off topic. Until then, nothing in the new laws today affect how firearms are classified. Manufacturers were never able to classify their own firearms.
    Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. HL Mencken. 1916.
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  10. #20
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    I have a pre-order in and I like the look of the optic in the first advertised picture, what brand/model is it?

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