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Thread: E-2574 Petition: Call Upon the PM to withdraw GunBan OIC

  1. #781
    CGN Ultra frequent flyer kodiakjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lupothebutcher View Post
    The rcmp is indeed updating and adding firearms to the FRT (firearms reference table), the important thing to remember is that the FRT is basically a spreadsheet, just a file or a table. A tool that the rcmp uses to keep track of THEIR firearms classifications; IT IS NOT A LAW.

    So day to day, where exactly does the FRT come into play?

    If RCMP officer joe stops you on the way home from the range and you’ve got an unloaded Typhoon F-12 on the back seat, does the FRT come into play? Could he “run” your gun against the FRT the same way he would run a license plate or VIN number? If so, do other forces such as OPP, RNLC, municipal forces, etc. also have access?

    What does officer joe go by in determining whether or not the firearm you have with you is p/r/nr?
    It makes no difference what men think of war. War endures. May as well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. - Cormac McCarthy

  2. #782
    CGN Ultra frequent flyer CLW .45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kodiakjack View Post
    So day to day, where exactly does the FRT come into play?

    If RCMP officer joe stops you on the way home from the range and you’ve got an unloaded Typhoon F-12 on the back seat, does the FRT come into play? Could he “run” your gun against the FRT the same way he would run a license plate or VIN number? If so, do other forces such as OPP, RNLC, municipal forces, etc. also have access?

    What does officer joe go by in determining whether or not the firearm you have with you is p/r/nr?
    Often, just his opinion.

    Then, let the bosses and the crown sort it.
    To demonstrate that people can actually go to the moon and back, you use the American experience.
    To demonstrate that public safety is not adversely affected by responsible people carrying to protect life, you also use the American experience.



  3. #783
    CGN Ultra frequent flyer rangebob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakonut View Post
    I keep hearing from guys at work, or seeing posts online about "oh they added gun x to the list" or "250 new models added to prohib list". When I search Google, the same lists from may 1 pop up... Where are people getting this info, or are they out to lunch?
    There's the Gazette OIC
    http://gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2020/2...ors96-eng.html

    and there are three different Firearms Reference Table (FRT) releases that we're seeing on social media today:
    a) Public FRT. The most recent of these was May 6. This is the one that armalitics is using. Armalitics parses that into their website's database.
    b) Business FRT. Most businesses use this one. About once a week the RCMP updates it with the live data
    c) Verifiers FRT. This one is up to the second. This is the one the Firearms Lab is entering/updating information into. (Calibre magazine has access to this one, so their twitter examples are pretty good)

    So, what we're seeing on Facebook/Twitter/CGN are
    • a couple lists with 200+ firearms in them, that are the results of bad queries against the FRT. These do not in fact reflect prohibited
    • lots of individual discoveries, verified by people with the Verifiers FRT, of one firearm at a time that's been changed to prohibited, that's not named in the OIC.

    Fortunately, Armalitics is keeping track of these individual discoveries from everybody, for those that are verified prohibited in the Verifier's FRT since May 7.

    https://www.armalytics.ca/

    and click on the left hand side's "BANNED BY OIC" -> "Yes (Live FRT Only)" and you'll see the list of 40 firearms that have been banned in the FRT since May 7.




    Re the 200 bad list

    Quote Originally Posted by rangebob
    That's some misinformation (as of now) based on a Google document that's making rounds. There are prohibited variants of those guns but the parent entry is still non-restricted.
    ...
    They are wrong. This is the current FRT for the 870. There are restricted and prohibited variants thereof but the 870 parent entry is N/R.
    The list they are sharing is the search result for the terms "prohibited shotgun" which is returning just about every shotgun as they all can be made prohibited by reducing the barrel length or OAL to move them into the prohibited category, ergo, the FRT has listed prohibited variants for all of them to capture those prohib variants. But the parent entries are unchanged.
    ...
    Also re: OIC implementation and the FRT, this list is going around on social media as a list of "newly prohibited firearms."
    That is incorrect. The firearms on this list are not necessarily prohibited. The list is simply showing the results of searching "prohibited shotgun" in the FRT. All the guns listed have prohibited VARIANTS, but the parent entries for many (as in most, we just haven't checked them all) are still unchanged and non-restricted.
    The prohibited and restricted variants are prohibited due to not meeting OAL or barrel length requirements; guns that have been cut down, or put into pistol-grip stocks with short barrels, or those that can be put into bullpup stocks. The notes on each variant defines why.
    BUT TO BE CLEAR THIS LIST IS BULL####. THIS IS NOT A LIST OF PROHIB GUNS.
    -- Calibre, https://www.facebook.com/45789088760...4678921925824/
    One eye to the past. One eye to the future. The wisest course.

  4. #784
    Member 7.92x57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rangebob View Post
    There's the Gazette OIC
    http://gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2020/2...ors96-eng.html

    and there are three different Firearms Reference Table (FRT) releases that we're seeing on social media today:
    a) Public FRT. The most recent of these was May 6. This is the one that armalitics is using. Armalitics parses that into their website's database.
    b) Business FRT. Most businesses use this one. About once a week the RCMP updates it with the live data
    c) Verifiers FRT. This one is up to the second. This is the one the Firearms Lab is entering/updating information into. (Calibre magazine has access to this one, so their twitter examples are pretty good)

    So, what we're seeing on Facebook/Twitter/CGN are
    • a couple lists with 200+ firearms in them, that are the results of bad queries against the FRT. These do not in fact reflect prohibited
    • lots of individual discoveries, verified by people with the Verifiers FRT, of one firearm at a time that's been changed to prohibited, that's not named in the OIC.

    Fortunately, Armalitics is keeping track of these individual discoveries from everybody, for those that are verified prohibited in the Verifier's FRT since May 7.

    https://www.armalytics.ca/

    and click on the left hand side's "BANNED BY OIC" -> "Yes (Live FRT Only)" and you'll see the list of 40 firearms that have been banned in the FRT since May 7.




    Re the 200 bad list
    bet ya that they will all be prohib if the Liberals win again.
    CCFR member

  5. #785
    CGN Ultra frequent flyer kodiakjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLW .45 View Post
    Often, just his opinion.

    Then, let the bosses and the crown sort it.
    So if it’s just their opinion, then theres no more risk to seizure today, than before May 1st. I carry pre-May 6th copies of FRTs rolled up in a ziplock stuffed inside the pistol grip of all my NR semis, as well as PDFs on my phone. If “opinion” is still the difference between “have a nice day” and “come with me”, then surely there’s still value in carrying and producing these documents to persuade officer joe’s opinion...

    Or...

    Is the “higher path” to just shut up. Let them take them if they desire, then initiate legal action in an effort to set a precedent?
    It makes no difference what men think of war. War endures. May as well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. - Cormac McCarthy

  6. #786
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    Anyone have a pre-tyranny copy of the STAG FRT report?
    "He who dares not offend, cannot be honest."
    - Thomas Paine

    "Oppression maketh a wise man mad"

  7. #787
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    I was stopped by Wildlife 2 years ago with an MKA Match 1919 I had at the time. It was opening day of moose, but we were in the area aboard the truck for a drive-around after some early morning duck hunting.

    I got hauled to the side of the woods road for a spot check, to which they immediately saw the 1919 and went on alert, said looks like an AR15 and I was looking for moose? After explaining it was a non restricted shotgun, 12GA as marked on the barrel, I had been in looking for ducks and doing nothing wrong, and about 10 minutes of him and his buddy sizing it up, it was have a good morning sir and on my way. No FRT. Now I may have just had a couple of curious officers, but that was my experience.

    Whether all LE is being briefed on this gong show and what firearms to have an eye out for / target, other than those listed on the OIC, is anyone's guess. If I still had my MKA 1919, I'd be hesitant on using it this fall for ducks. I know, for the average firearm owner, there would be NO way to know it had been changed to prohibited, as what average owner has access to the live FRT feed? You can say it's your responsibility as a FA owner to know what class your FA is, but we've only got this information by chance on a forum - there's been no real release or way for the "average" person to find out about this past the CGN community. If they banned my Mustang tomorrow by changing the registration at the DMV, without informing ANYONE, and it was just by chance my dealer was running registration and said "Hey look, this magically shows as Prohibited when yesterday it wasn't" how would I know I'm legally not allowed to drive it? I've not been through the courts, nor am I qualified to give legal advice, but this seems reasonable without a doubt.

    However with poor luck and an over zealous officer, it could make for a bad morning in the woods. Whether you want escalate it there and go for a ride to explain the situation, or let them go on with the firearm and fight it later - well, that'll be up to you and your situation.

    I feel like with an FRT on you that states NR, it should go no farther then a "Have a good day Sir / Ma'am" but we know how that goes.
    SJRGC
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  8. #788
    CGN Ultra frequent flyer rangebob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bfranklin View Post
    Anyone have a pre-tyranny copy of the STAG FRT report?
    https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...-month-version

  9. #789
    CGN Ultra frequent flyer CLW .45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kodiakjack View Post
    So if it’s just their opinion, then theres no more risk to seizure today, than before May 1st. I carry pre-May 6th copies of FRTs rolled up in a ziplock stuffed inside the pistol grip of all my NR semis, as well as PDFs on my phone. If “opinion” is still the difference between “have a nice day” and “come with me”, then surely there’s still value in carrying and producing these documents to persuade officer joe’s opinion...

    Or...

    Is the “higher path” to just shut up. Let them take them if they desire, then initiate legal action in an effort to set a precedent?
    Any document, like the FRT and official brochures regarding transportation, can be useful.

    But only if Officer Joe is willing to read them, and agree that they apply to the situation.

    We appear to be moving in a direction which will see two distinctly different approaches by police.

    A few seem to be moving toward a “don’t ask, don’t act” approach.

    The many seem most likely to default to the “your possession of a gun makes you a threat, I am seizing them and you can come into the office if you believe you can prove you have done nothing wrong.”
    To demonstrate that people can actually go to the moon and back, you use the American experience.
    To demonstrate that public safety is not adversely affected by responsible people carrying to protect life, you also use the American experience.



  10. #790
    CGN frequent flyer hsatimmy's Avatar
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    @greentips

    Could we edit the title to include more than the one petition? the thread is front and centre on the forum but theres multiple steps we can support and we dont want anyone to miss an avenue for support

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