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Thread: Legal actions, Go Fund Me etc.

  1. #311
    CGN frequent flyer All in fun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadaguy1 View Post
    https://ipolitics.ca/2020/11/27/albe...r-70m-himself/

    So are the donations now going to fight a court action for 70 million instead of fighting for the lawful right to keep our guns?
    You seem to have an uninformed opinion of what is happening. I suggest you consult with your own attorney to try and get an understanding of the very many possible issues at play here.

  2. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by hannibal.black98 View Post
    Why?

    The RCMP updating FRTs has no legal standing...
    You dont seem to grasp what is at stake.

    The rcmp believes atrs firearms are prohib. The frt was changed may 27th. The rcmp believe that they were prohibited as of may 1st. From may 1 to may 26 atrs may have been selling firearms that the atrs thought were NR and the frt said was NR but the RCMP thought were prohib. Not only would the people who bought them after May 1st not be covered under the amnesty but atrs could be accused of trafficking. Handing over their sales records would expose all of their customers to significant liability.

    And the fact that the frt is not law means atrs can not rely on it as a defense, or at least thats what the crown will argue.
    Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auction sale of stolen goods. HL Mencken. 1919.

  3. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron SS View Post
    You dont seem to grasp what is at stake.

    The rcmp believes atrs firearms are prohib. The frt was changed may 27th. The rcmp believe that they were prohibited as of may 1st. From may 1 to may 26 atrs may have been selling firearms that the atrs thought were NR and the frt said was NR but the RCMP thought were prohib. Not only would the people who bought them after May 1st not be covered under the amnesty but atrs could be accused of trafficking. Handing over their sales records would expose all of their customers to significant liability.

    And the fact that the frt is not law means atrs can not rely on it as a defense, or at least thats what the crown will argue.
    I’m confused...

    Isn’t the Alberta cfo claiming the frt is law and proceeding against atrs based on that?
    If the frt is not law / the crown uses that argument to not allow sales between may1-27 and going forward, don’t they have to explain why this wasn’t named in the oic/why the rcmp deemed this NOT a variant earlier and now define the nebulous term “and modified versions”. the Modern sported is not an ar15 or a variant, so how it could be a modified version of one?

  4. #314
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    [QUOTE=Cameron SS;17590074]You dont seem to grasp what is at stake.

    The rcmp believes atrs firearms are prohib. The frt was changed may 27th. The rcmp believe that they were prohibited as of may 1st. From may 1 to may 26 atrs may have been selling firearms that the atrs thought were NR and the frt said was NR but the RCMP thought were prohib. Not only would the people who bought them after May 1st not be covered under the amnesty but atrs could be accused of trafficking. Handing over their sales records would expose all of their customers to significant liability.

    Are the CFO/RCMP asking for these sales records?

    As a NR firearm/receiver, there is no law in place that any business has to keep record of sales, all the business needs to do is check that buyers PAL is valid with the CFO , they better not be keeping personal records of who bought what

  5. #315
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    for over a decade some businesses have been told to keep the records by the alberta cfo office, I was standing there on 2 occasions

    also sometimes I ran into Alberta cfo office employees at the place of business copying the books of purchase signatures

    much going on,behind the scenes please don’t assume businesses are handing over personal info on a whim


    [QUOTE=Ironheart;17590142]
    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron SS View Post
    You dont seem to grasp what is at stake.

    The rcmp believes atrs firearms are prohib. The frt was changed may 27th. The rcmp believe that they were prohibited as of may 1st. From may 1 to may 26 atrs may have been selling firearms that the atrs thought were NR and the frt said was NR but the RCMP thought were prohib. Not only would the people who bought them after May 1st not be covered under the amnesty but atrs could be accused of trafficking. Handing over their sales records would expose all of their customers to significant liability.

    Are the CFO/RCMP asking for these sales records?

    As a NR firearm/receiver, there is no law in place that any business has to keep record of sales, all the business needs to do is check that buyers PAL is valid with the CFO , they better not be keeping personal records of who bought what
    Life is too short.

  6. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by jg007 View Post
    I’m confused...

    Isn’t the Alberta cfo claiming the frt is law and proceeding against atrs based on that?
    If the frt is not law / the crown uses that argument to not allow sales between may1-27 and going forward, don’t they have to explain why this wasn’t named in the oic/why the rcmp deemed this NOT a variant earlier and now define the nebulous term “and modified versions”. the Modern sported is not an ar15 or a variant, so how it could be a modified version of one?
    To the extent that I have not seen any documents from any of the parties, I can't tell what the CFO is or is not claiming.

    People need to stop saying this nonsense about whether the FRT is or is not law.

    Is your drivers license LAW? no. Does it legally matter if you have one? yes. Does it legally matter what your drivers license authorizes you to do? Yes. Does it legally matter if the car you drive doesn't match what your license authorizes? yes. Are there laws that govern the issuance of licenses? yes?

    The FRT matters, in law. Whether the FRT is itself the law or not is mostly irrelevant. The law says certain firearms are prohibited. The RCMP say certain ATRS firearms are prohibited under the law. They say this in a variety of ways, including in the FRT. ATRS says that the FRT is how the RCMP communicates its legal opinions to the public, and there is no other effective mechanism for doing so.

    We do not know, and I do not expect to find out anytime soon, exactly what the RCMP are trying to do and what ATRS has done in response. We will have to be patient and simply trust that ATRS is thinking first and foremost about their employees, their families, their customers, and the broader firearms community, in that order, and are going to take all reasonable steps to protect those parties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironheart View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron SS View Post
    You dont seem to grasp what is at stake.

    The rcmp believes atrs firearms are prohib. The frt was changed may 27th. The rcmp believe that they were prohibited as of may 1st. From may 1 to may 26 atrs may have been selling firearms that the atrs thought were NR and the frt said was NR but the RCMP thought were prohib. Not only would the people who bought them after May 1st not be covered under the amnesty but atrs could be accused of trafficking. Handing over their sales records would expose all of their customers to significant liability.
    Are the CFO/RCMP asking for these sales records?

    As a NR firearm/receiver, there is no law in place that any business has to keep record of sales, all the business needs to do is check that buyers PAL is valid with the CFO , they better not be keeping personal records of who bought what
    We don't really know what the RCMP has asked for. Only what people have commented on.

    There is no law requiring the keeping of sales records specifically connecting an individual to a specific firearm, however if those records exist, and every business does keep sales records as its a requirement of various provincial and federal tax codes, than the RCMP can demand those records.

    if you don't want your personal information stored by the business who is selling you products, than you better be paying in cash. Every point of sale system I've seen connects a credit card number with a sales invoice, and the sales invoice itemizes the product, and where the product is a firearm, the unit number (normally serial number) of the firearm is connected.

    Its not 1984 any more. Big Brother is on computers now. Cash is still king.
    Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auction sale of stolen goods. HL Mencken. 1919.

  7. #317
    CGN frequent flyer cdndfs's Avatar
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    I wish Rick luck. This action by the government is frankly not a surprise. Did anyone really think the RCMP would just let ATRS continue selling rifles they deem prohibited unimpeded?

    Guys like Rick at the only people that give me any hope. Unfortunately they are few and far between.

    Freedom is on the downturn and the average Canadian is too pampered, ignorant or stupid to realize it.

    Even in the US, we’re seeing messaging around COVID that freedom and an independent spirit is the problem. It’s time for you to do as your told.

    It is incredible to me that after the body count of the 20th century, that we could again be heading in this same direction once again.

  8. #318
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    I'd like to personally thank ARTS and all staff for standing up for their customers and the community as a whole.

    I wish you guys all the best!
    CCFR Member - Rifles and Reels shooting club - Sudbury Ontario

  9. #319
    CGN Regular b-wingpilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron SS View Post
    There is no law requiring the keeping of sales records specifically connecting an individual to a specific firearm.
    But there is a requirement by the CFO to keep those sales records. If you don't want to keep them, then you do not get a Business Firearms License.

  10. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by brit84 View Post
    So modern sporter records have been handed over, or not yet?
    How long do they have to be legally held? Its getting cold in the north and fire is warm.

    Sorry if I missed prior info
    NO they have not been handed over and won't be. I will probably end up in jail for not complying to release many peoples personal info however.
    THIS is exactly the reason for the action, and total infringement on personal info and property rights.

    Edited for clarity. The records of transactions we DO have to keep are for tax reasons only. Restricted firearms purchases by law are recorded in an rcmP owned and issued book. This they have unfettered access to and no gun shop has an option there.

    NR sales require no book or record, but sales invoices are generated as tax records and must be retained as per CRA rules.
    Last edited by alberta tactical rifle; 11-30-2020 at 01:13 PM.
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