Service Rifle SR CQB with BOLT Guns

All I can sarcastically say is, “Marty; We’re going BACK to the Future!”

With all this talk about AR’s, OIC, Covid, I wanted to positively entertain a discussion about bolt gun use in Service Rifle (SR) and CQB Courses of Fire (CoF)

I see an opportunity when others choose to see a problem.... good, bad, or indifferent. Only time will tell when the lawyers have to go through the entire process. In the meantime, we Match Directors have a responsibility to keep the Matches and Training rolling for newbies, beginners, soldiers, Shooting Teams, Brigade Teams, and other Marksmanship enthusiasts. Even if we have to use bolt guns.

Been there, and done that! I’ve been competing in SR events since 1986 (both American and Canadian rule sets).

I’ve employed both Winchester Model 70 (push feed Coyote .223 w/9” twist barrel, ( with these 68 gr, 69 gr, 75 gr Amax booolits). It was a medium profiled barrel. We used (my 13 year old son) to stuff 7 rounds inside the internal box magazine on the commands: Load ! Ready! During the rapids my son and I were able to get all 7 rounds off and maybe that single 8th loosely shoved on the magazine follower and bolt hammered home.

I’ve competed with a Remmy 700 P with 24” barrel and the 3 round factory DM. On the command load and Ready, I would chamber a round, engage the safety, then insert a factory 3 round magazine. Oh BTW, this was back in 1992/93. My Colt HBar stayed at home and so did my M1A Sporter. Okay, on the reloads for the rapid, I would run my rifle dry, toss one round and close the bolt, then slap in that second 3 round factory magazine. Keith C of Milcun Marksmanship Complex was the RSO and we shared some lively discussions after the matches.

Fast forward to 2020, we have a shzt tonne of platforms for bolt guns to remain competitive even with extended timings for the MD’s to enforce. Usually on an SR Rapid fire it’s 15 seconds; 5 shots , magazine change, 5 shots. For you ORA or Milo CQB’ers; the Rapid fire goes like 15 seconds; 5 shots left, magazine change, 5 shots right figure 11. That’s 15 seconds for AR rigs. With the Rangers and other bolt gun shooters, we gave them 30 seconds.

Hardware/Rifles

I’m pushing customers (remember, it’s my business forum; my rules.... ha ha ha ha. ) into platforms with magazine systems that are proven to work. I’m thinking of AICS magazines and AR magazines (for now).

Consider the Ruger American Ranch for around $ 750, it comes with a 16.5” barrel and feeds from AR magazines. Many of you SR and CQB types have a significant supply of proven (allows magazine security with the bolt forward and round chambered into a 5 & 1 situation)

Consider a Mossberg (dare I suggest this?) MVP which allows feeding from a magazine

Consider a Remmy M700 upgraded with an MDT LSS carbine buttstock allowing many different (6 positions) buttstock lengths. And then you can have a reliable AICS feed system from Accurate Magazine (that’s what I’m using) or MDT Tac 10 round polymer .223 magazines
I’m choosing the Magpul Hunter stock because I happen to really like their AICS magazine feeding systems. Okay, I’ll just have to remove the buttstock spacers (very slowly) to accommodate my body armour/plates.

Consider the Savage Hog Hunter.... help me out here/there: Proprietary magazines in 4 rounds only?

Consider the Ruger American....in Magpul Hunter stock?

I believe MDT Tac makes the LSS for the Winchester Model 70 push feed versions and the Savage and Ruger American models.


Anyways, we have many opinions and many solutions for this game. We have many fan boys from various platforms. Bring on the discussions.....

Adversity Into Advantage!!

Cheers, Barney

Reserved for my pictures....

My age old complaint with Remmy SPS Rifles was that their barrels only came factory twisted in 12”. That’s annoying since my AR’s from the get go loved the 68 gr Hornady and 69 gr SMK. I’ve won many medals with these booolits

My current SPS Tac in Bravo KRG has a 9” barrel, but that ‘s too onerous to run around the SR and CQB fields with

My also current SPS Remmy 700 .223 is seated in a Magpul Hunter stock and I have had success launching Remingto 62 grain Match booolits from Epps at $21.99 / 100 slugs.

Minor speed bumps along the way.....


Cheers, Barney

OK but if we continue with the competitions with bolt guns wont the liberals say see you don't need AR's for sports shooting. I think it would be better to cancel all shooting events where the AR would normally be used to show it has impacted sports shooting. Instead of adapting to Trudeau's rules

Komodo said:

OK but if we continue with the competitions with bolt guns wont the liberals say see you don't need AR's for sports shooting. I think it would be better to cancel all shooting events where the AR would normally be used to show it has impacted sports shooting. Instead of adapting to Trudeau's rules

Click to expand...

That would work if they cared.

They don’t.

Komodo - the powers that be know that the basic SR CoF has been shot for about 100 years, with whatever rifles were in use at the time. It is demonstrable fact that the AR has been used for decades in this competition. That is proof of its use in competition. Not only has it been used, it is a superior rifle for the competition.

I put together a SR rig some time ago.
R700 action, Savage .223 1-9 sporter weight barrel, mustache pulling M4 type stock. Bushnell 6500 2-8 scope. In a MDT LSS chassis. Retains most of the handling features of an AR. Shoots 69gr SMKs well enough to be competitive.
When I fitted the Savage barrel, I cut 1-16 threads over top of the 1-20 Savage threads, leaving enough Savage threads for the barrel nut. Sounds awful, worked fine. Barrel breech face counterbored for Remingon bolt, headspace adjusted. I've mounted a gilled brake. Rifle just lies there, goes bang.

Tagged for interest.

Shoot straight - chrisco

Tagged.

About an SKS match ?

2 categories: stock config with stripper clips and the tacticool category

Most people already own one or ten SKSs so it doesn’t require an additional purchase of a rifle.

Also, CoF can easily be adjusted for Pistol only CQB matches.

Valcartier’s ranges are closed until August 31st so the season is basically done, but Pistol only match and SKS match would be what I’d be working towards if we could have matches this summer in order to have full matches.


Cheers

I like the Ruger American suggestion - they are super cost effective. Another possibility would be a Ruger "Gunsite Scout" in .223 - they have access to very good factory 3, 5, ad 10 round magazines.

Keep an eye on w ww.osacanada.ca. The revised 2020 schedule will be posted soon. Tentatively scheduled are New Service Rifle Trials on July 4th. I expect this will be SR oriented, not CQB.

Definitely some great food for thought.

JR

w squared said:

I like the Ruger American suggestion - they are super cost effective. Another possibility would be a Ruger "Gunsite Scout" in .223 - they have access to very good factory 3, 5, ad 10 round magazines.

Click to expand...

Another vote for the Ruger GSS. Great little rifle.

Subscribed.

Rem 783 shorty in MDT chassis is not bad at all, but adult calibers can be loud with a brake.
If using SKS, COF would be incomplete without a bayo stab at close range.
Have you thought about having a PCC division?

Maybe have different categories? Some people still have some semis they would like to use.

Hold on (facetious hat ON....)

What SKS???

Back to Sarcasm.... SKS rigs have always enjoyed a super presence in CQB. Not so much in SR. Back in the fall of 2009, TimK and I ventured to Quebec City, QC and stayed at CFB Valcartier. We delivered a CQB clinic that weekend and there was a very strong representation of SKS rigs there. The fastest folks were clip feeding 5 or 6 rounds per clip.

They were super smart.... Using a couple of wraps of PINK, Lime Green, or yellow duct tape (Staples sells every colour) at the top of the steel clip (notice; I said, “clip” not magazine ) to allow a rapid deployment and alignment of the 5 or 6 round clip into the SKS clip slot. Right hand was strong hand; they used a high right elbow and turned the top of the SKS receiver to the interior of the body; this alignment allowed opposing shoulders (read: big muscle groups) to facilitate a quick reload.

I loved watching them while I was RSO’ing that end of the firing line. Just like when I used to compete with an M14 and clip feed. Now back to the M14 and respective clip feed, because the M14, 7.62mm, .308 clips are 5 rounders, there is a tendency to draw (lots of) blood during this rapid replenishment under stress. The thumb can potentially mis align and then proceed to rip open the skin on the side of the thumb. Ask me how I know.

And yes, the Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle is a perfect candidate for SR and CQB matches (well, .308 ammo does get pricey), but the .223 has lots of future potential in these games.

I could use one if I could FIND one in .223 and synthetic black stock with a 16.1” factory barrel (I hope I have that dimension right)...

In the mean time I shall proceed to prepare my SPS .223 Remmy M700 “Threaded” from Epps for SR and CQB fun and do some dry runs at my club....

Keep the discussion rolling!! And bring out them SKS rigs! LOL.

Cheers, Barney

Tagged for interest, I like where you're going with this.

Would love to try this with a Ruger Gunsite Scout in .308 and a LPVO

I'm interested. Tagged. Definitely want to move forward and get into competition as planned. Just can't do it with my AR now. What about the tavor?

I have a Remmy 700 .308 win 16.5” HV barrel 1:10 twist with a MDT LSS chassis, muzzle brake and 10rd Steel MDT mags. Magpul grip and strike industries Viper Mod 1 stock. Currently a Vortex 6-24 HS-T Mrad scope in QD Burris XTR 30mm rings sits on top and I have to say I love this rifle it’s is sort of a do all. Nice and short weighs under 7lbs total. With Or without handloads it shoots great. Sounds like it would meet the needs of these types of competition very well.