The R18 Mk2 Review Pt 2 Live Fire Reliabllity and Accuracy Results
- Thread starter Bartok5
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I stand by my original point - if nobody buys the R18 it will die on the "good ideas" pile and future designers will decide that production is not worth the trouble for the small Canadian market. It is really that simple.
But you are right, of course - My review has been a deliberate plot to separate you from your hard-earned cash by selling a "sub-par, overpriced hunk of cheaply made metal to the starving Canadian market". You've sure got us all figured out there Sherlock.....
You are clearly an idiot with serious reading comprehension issues. Please go spew your nonsense elsewhere and leave those of us who wish to discuss the new rifle to that conversation.
This is the exact reply I would given. LOL
There is a useless troll in every thread, it seems. The down-side of CGN. Makes it difficult to hold an adult conversation with agenda-driven axe-grinders interjecting their utter nonsense. We do share one common thought however - 98/29 is a clearly a legend in his own mind....
Last few posts aside, for all of my, subjectively constructive criticisms, I'll make public a msg I sent a few weeks ago offering to do some testing on one of the rifles. I've got plenty of diff types of ammo and a range 10 mins down the road, 5-150m to play with. Would be more than happy to throw a few thousand various rounds down range and garner other shooters opinions whenever I run into one. Do some literal running and gunning and put it through average consumer usage. Various magazines , and maintain original parts, i.e. trigger. Something of note is the constant use of 62gr xtac. Great ammo sure. But one type of ammo. Lots of people own rifles that simply don't "like" certain ammos. Hell, my stock C8 shot 2.5-3.3 MOA with ammo ranging $16-$25/box on a 3x Elcan at 100m, with Winchester white box outshooting three more expensive ammos when accounting for 1 flier which I called. This was my "ammo/rifle trial" within my first year of shooting and owning the rifle. Limitations were certainly myself and my magnification.
https://imgur.com/7OXbHqq
I was thinking of this thread the other day and the discussion wayyy back about the difference between adding a scope and changing a trigger. It boils down to this; one is an addition to a stock rifle and enhances the shooters ability to mimic the rifles inherent capability, while the other alters the rifle and its baseline capability in the same hands. One is an extension of the bodies limitations to test baseline MOA of a stock rifle as ordered, the other assists in the quality of the action taken on the rifle by the user via upgrade. Shooters can match manufacturer claimed MOA on a milspec trigger. No set of eyes on the planet matches 5/10/20x magnification to identify target and allow the user to fix a stock rifle on the same square inch shot after shot and allow the rifle to show its true colours.
This all to say, as someone completely unattached to the project, and any engagement being blatantly visible throughout this thread, I'd love to take a crack at it. On a competing rifle I just sold on Monday, I had it at the range the day before (Sunday) and plugged 2.02 and 1.54 MOA 5rnd groups with 5.56 Federal Independence and an Elcan 1-4x @ 98yards. Would love nothing more than to throw a high mag optic on a R18 Mk(X) and see what it's capable of and then put it through it's paces at indeterminate ranges for reliability and product (ammo/magazine) testing.
https://imgur.com/vuytHpz
https://imgur.com/1PXfvfH
https://imgur.com/7OXbHqq
I was thinking of this thread the other day and the discussion wayyy back about the difference between adding a scope and changing a trigger. It boils down to this; one is an addition to a stock rifle and enhances the shooters ability to mimic the rifles inherent capability, while the other alters the rifle and its baseline capability in the same hands. One is an extension of the bodies limitations to test baseline MOA of a stock rifle as ordered, the other assists in the quality of the action taken on the rifle by the user via upgrade. Shooters can match manufacturer claimed MOA on a milspec trigger. No set of eyes on the planet matches 5/10/20x magnification to identify target and allow the user to fix a stock rifle on the same square inch shot after shot and allow the rifle to show its true colours.
This all to say, as someone completely unattached to the project, and any engagement being blatantly visible throughout this thread, I'd love to take a crack at it. On a competing rifle I just sold on Monday, I had it at the range the day before (Sunday) and plugged 2.02 and 1.54 MOA 5rnd groups with 5.56 Federal Independence and an Elcan 1-4x @ 98yards. Would love nothing more than to throw a high mag optic on a R18 Mk(X) and see what it's capable of and then put it through it's paces at indeterminate ranges for reliability and product (ammo/magazine) testing.
https://imgur.com/vuytHpz
https://imgur.com/1PXfvfH
JR Cox monitors this thread, as does the Canadian Operations Manager for SAI. Whether or not they see fit to give you a rifle for testing is entirely their call. I personally would welcome additional sets of eyes. I've never claimed to be all-knowing and I am sure that others would have useful input based on first-hand experience. Fellow shooters that I have encountered on the range have all been universally enthusiastic about the R18 and the way that it handles. But 5 or 10 quick rounds through a rifle does not provide an adequate basis for detailed critique. Thus far, almost everything that I have mentined in terms of feedback to JR Cox has been addressed as a rolling change on the soon to be released production rifles. Cox and SAI are open to constructive criticism, so hopefully they will consider sending out some of the initial batch of production rifles for CGN consumer testing as soon as the ajustable Gas Blocks and medium-weight IBI Barrels arrive early in the new year. Not my call, but I think that it is a great idea.
As an aside, most of the PMC X-Tac that I have fired has been 55 gr, not 62 gr. All of the measured groups were fired with 55 gr PMC.
Classy how you characterize everyone with an interest in the R18 as a "like minded trogodyte". Great way to make new friends. Thanks for leaving, you won't be missed.
I apologize for my short attention span preventing me from reading the whole thread, but from what I understand there is no ETA on production models yet, but Shooting Edge will carry them? Do I have it right?
Well you are a self righteous SOB. I have always said one great enemy we as gun owners have, is ourselves. Your attitude does nothing but divide the group. Canada is a very small market. No company will invest time and money here to make firearms for the general population of shooters from outside Canada.that is an AR replacement. We have people here doing their best to fill the gap. Before you call an individual out walk in their shoes. As for the product they make, use over time is an indication of quality. Negative remarks without evidence is useless on the quality of a product.
Well, I’ve been following and enjoying this thread (mostly). If we could keep to the topic at hand and skip the personal attacks that would be great.
Seems like the next significant update is likely to be release details followed by owner reviews. I’m still interested in this rifle, particularly a lighter weight configuration.
Seems like the next significant update is likely to be release details followed by owner reviews. I’m still interested in this rifle, particularly a lighter weight configuration.
I used to be of this mind, but my experience with the PE-90 / Sig Classic <insert colour here> changed all of that.
I know - apples / grapefruit to the AR-180b, however:
Yesterday I took off a medium/heavy 20" Armalite Match barrel with 8" twist off one of my old service match rifles and spun it onto a buddy's WK-180 and converted it over to rifle length gas with the TNA rifle length piston.
Today I had it out for a test fire and it printed all 10 rounds of that test ammo (AE XM-223) into 2" at 100m with a TA-31 w/ donut for an optic. I was positively blown over.
I'm heading out tomorrow with a more suitable optic and a bunch of ammo to test.
I'm half of the mind now, that as long as you float a good barrel (as would be applicable to an AR), these 180 clones will be as every bit as accurate as a D.I. AR (within reason of course.)
I am pleased that some of you are actually enjoying the thread and the ability to help shape the R18 into its final production form. That was the entire point of my review - to get folks talking about the new rifles, their likes and dislikes - so that JR Cox and SAI would have feedback from a much broader audience than just myself as a volunteer tester/reviewer. I think that aim has been achieved in spades. I had a sit-down with JR at his Range/Retail Store today, as I happened to be in Calgary for the Ribbon-Cutting of a national, travelling Afghanistan Museum Exhibit the evening prior. In addition to the usual Army buddy back and forth, We had a solid discussion about the R18 and its (hopefully) future development.
Only 4 IBI Barrels have been ordered for accuracy testing in various Barrel weights. This was a stop-gap to give the rifle testers barrels to work with whlle revised in-house Barrels are manufactured. The basic specifications listed in Part 1 of my Review (Air-Gauged, Stress-Relieved, etc) will of course, apply to the revised in-house Barrels. The difference is that the new Barrels will be 2/10" thicker in diameter between the Chamber and the Gas Block, and will then be heavily fluted throughout that same area. The result is a stiffer Barrel with a thicker profile and increased surface cooling area, but that weighs only 4 oz more than the current "Pencil Barrel". Combined with the reduced-profile Adjustable Gas Block, the stiffer Barrel ought to eliminate (or at least minimize) Gas Block contact with the Handguard. The revised in-house Barrel will also be dimpled for the Gas Block Screws, thus precluding any movement of the Gas Block once the screws are torqued and thread-locked.
The original AR180 Operating Springs are with the spring sub-contractor for replication. The original springs were both thicker and longer than the enhanced R18 Operating Springs, and the duplicates will be adopted for all production rifles.
The most exciting news is that a very limited number of "Pencil Barrelled" R18 Mk2s with fixed Gas Blocks (basically, the same Rifle as my Tester) will be sold as early as next week. People who have called The Shooting Edge and requested a Pencil Barrel rifle will be called on a first-come, first-served basis and offered one of those rifles. If somebody has changed their mind, then that rifle will go to the next person on the list. There are only approximately 40 "Pencil Barrel" R18s that wil be sold in this limited pre-production batch. The rifles will be sold on the understanding that when the production Charging Handles (going to all-Steel construction) and Adjustable Gas Blocks are available, an "Upgrade Kit" will be automatically mailed out to the "Pencil-Barrel" rifle owners. If you simply cannot wait and are interested in a "Pencil Barrel" R18 before Christmas, then call TSE and get your name on the list ASAP.
The Adjustable Steel Gas Block will initially be a 2-screw affair, with a Gas Adjustment Screw and a Set Screw (to secure the Gas Adjustment Screw). Knowing that people's preference is for a rotary Gas Plug *(like the SIG 550) or Adjustment Sleeve (FN FAL), JR Cox intends to design a Tool-Less Adjustable Gas Block. Right now, he is leaning towards an FN FAL-type approach with a rotary sleeve that increasingly covers (or uncovers) a Gas Vent, but he is wide open (no pun intended!) to ideas. Design simplicity will be key, as will be minimal additional machining time.
Production R18 Mk2s with the Medium-weight Fluted Barrel, Steel Charging Handle and Adjustible Gas Block uppgrades will be ready for sale early in the New Year. When I have a firm date for the R18 Mk2 launch I will immediately post it here. My testing and review process will most likely end once I conduct accuracy testing with the revised Production Fluted Barrel.
Those are the highlights of today's discussion. I really enjoyed the opportunity while at TSE to handle and inspect earlier iterations of key R18 components as part of a "behind the scenes" tour of the faciity. I must say, that was pretty cool!
Oh - a piece of firearms trivia for you: I was able to confirm that Sterling Arms International is the same hereditary family that owned and operated Sterling Arms Limited at Dagenham, UK. They manufactured all of the Sterling L2A3 submachineguns in UK service and produced the 1980s AR-180 under license from Armalite. They moved away from firearms manufacture when the UK went crazy with anti-firearms legislation, but are now looking to break back into the international market for both civiian sporting rifles as well as the Law Enforcement and Defence markets. The civilian market for firearms in the European Union has recently exploded with some countries significantly loosening their civiian firearms laws.
That's about it for now. I will continue to rack up the round-count on the primary Test Rifle between now and Christmas, by which time the limited batch of "Pencil Barrel" pre-production rifles should be hitting the streets with owner feedback. If nothing else, that pre-production batch of rifles ought to give the discussion a shot in the arm once the new owners chime in with their own (hopefully positive) comments.
Only 4 IBI Barrels have been ordered for accuracy testing in various Barrel weights. This was a stop-gap to give the rifle testers barrels to work with whlle revised in-house Barrels are manufactured. The basic specifications listed in Part 1 of my Review (Air-Gauged, Stress-Relieved, etc) will of course, apply to the revised in-house Barrels. The difference is that the new Barrels will be 2/10" thicker in diameter between the Chamber and the Gas Block, and will then be heavily fluted throughout that same area. The result is a stiffer Barrel with a thicker profile and increased surface cooling area, but that weighs only 4 oz more than the current "Pencil Barrel". Combined with the reduced-profile Adjustable Gas Block, the stiffer Barrel ought to eliminate (or at least minimize) Gas Block contact with the Handguard. The revised in-house Barrel will also be dimpled for the Gas Block Screws, thus precluding any movement of the Gas Block once the screws are torqued and thread-locked.
The original AR180 Operating Springs are with the spring sub-contractor for replication. The original springs were both thicker and longer than the enhanced R18 Operating Springs, and the duplicates will be adopted for all production rifles.
The most exciting news is that a very limited number of "Pencil Barrelled" R18 Mk2s with fixed Gas Blocks (basically, the same Rifle as my Tester) will be sold as early as next week. People who have called The Shooting Edge and requested a Pencil Barrel rifle will be called on a first-come, first-served basis and offered one of those rifles. If somebody has changed their mind, then that rifle will go to the next person on the list. There are only approximately 40 "Pencil Barrel" R18s that wil be sold in this limited pre-production batch. The rifles will be sold on the understanding that when the production Charging Handles (going to all-Steel construction) and Adjustable Gas Blocks are available, an "Upgrade Kit" will be automatically mailed out to the "Pencil-Barrel" rifle owners. If you simply cannot wait and are interested in a "Pencil Barrel" R18 before Christmas, then call TSE and get your name on the list ASAP.
The Adjustable Steel Gas Block will initially be a 2-screw affair, with a Gas Adjustment Screw and a Set Screw (to secure the Gas Adjustment Screw). Knowing that people's preference is for a rotary Gas Plug *(like the SIG 550) or Adjustment Sleeve (FN FAL), JR Cox intends to design a Tool-Less Adjustable Gas Block. Right now, he is leaning towards an FN FAL-type approach with a rotary sleeve that increasingly covers (or uncovers) a Gas Vent, but he is wide open (no pun intended!) to ideas. Design simplicity will be key, as will be minimal additional machining time.
Production R18 Mk2s with the Medium-weight Fluted Barrel, Steel Charging Handle and Adjustible Gas Block uppgrades will be ready for sale early in the New Year. When I have a firm date for the R18 Mk2 launch I will immediately post it here. My testing and review process will most likely end once I conduct accuracy testing with the revised Production Fluted Barrel.
Those are the highlights of today's discussion. I really enjoyed the opportunity while at TSE to handle and inspect earlier iterations of key R18 components as part of a "behind the scenes" tour of the faciity. I must say, that was pretty cool!
Oh - a piece of firearms trivia for you: I was able to confirm that Sterling Arms International is the same hereditary family that owned and operated Sterling Arms Limited at Dagenham, UK. They manufactured all of the Sterling L2A3 submachineguns in UK service and produced the 1980s AR-180 under license from Armalite. They moved away from firearms manufacture when the UK went crazy with anti-firearms legislation, but are now looking to break back into the international market for both civiian sporting rifles as well as the Law Enforcement and Defence markets. The civilian market for firearms in the European Union has recently exploded with some countries significantly loosening their civiian firearms laws.
That's about it for now. I will continue to rack up the round-count on the primary Test Rifle between now and Christmas, by which time the limited batch of "Pencil Barrel" pre-production rifles should be hitting the streets with owner feedback. If nothing else, that pre-production batch of rifles ought to give the discussion a shot in the arm once the new owners chime in with their own (hopefully positive) comments.
Thank you for the update, and working with maker to have them release the pencil editions first to give those craving the R18 a chance to purchase it as is, and still provide some of the upgrades when available.
It sounds like the new barrels should be stiff enough to prevent the reasonance from rapid fire induces on the pencil barrel with the gas block on the end. That and the refining of the gas block design should be quite helpful. The dimpling of the barrel to index the gas block should help keep it in place in concert with the torqued and thread locked fasteners, helping prevent it rotating and torquing the piston into snapping. The makers may want to look at the adjustable gas system on the BRN-180 Gen 2; it too is readily adjustable.
It sounds like the new barrels should be stiff enough to prevent the reasonance from rapid fire induces on the pencil barrel with the gas block on the end. That and the refining of the gas block design should be quite helpful. The dimpling of the barrel to index the gas block should help keep it in place in concert with the torqued and thread locked fasteners, helping prevent it rotating and torquing the piston into snapping. The makers may want to look at the adjustable gas system on the BRN-180 Gen 2; it too is readily adjustable.
AskMeAboutMyBandcamp
CGN Regular
- Location
- Montreal, QC
Thanks for the update, Mark! Am I correct in assuming that the MK2 second production models will have the rear picatinny that goes a bit higher, to keep the same general line as our now prohibited guns?
Yes, the new production Lower Receivers will have the revised rear Picatinny Buttstock Rail with an additional setting at the top of the Rail. This will allow the user to place the top line of their Buttstock slightly above the recoil line of the Barrel and Bolt Carrier travel. This in turn, will greatly help to reduce muzzle rise when firing.
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