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Thread: The R18 Mk2 Review Pt 2 Live Fire Reliabllity and Accuracy Results

  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartok5 View Post
    And I suspect that the R18 will kick the competition's arse accuracy-wise once it is fitted with a stiffer Barrel. The R18 is a work in progress, whereas the WK-180 and (now $1600) WS-MCR are production rifles with several years of rolling improvements under their belts. The R18's demonstrated grouping potential (less fliers) varies from 1 to 1.5 MOA, ammo dependant. That ought to give the competition a run for their money.
    When did the R18 start to be developed. Has it been able to sit back and learn from the development of the WK and WS?

  2. #272
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    Is there an official date for the R18's release next year?

  3. #273
    Super GunNutz Bartok5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FraserGreen View Post
    When did the R18 start to be developed. Has it been able to sit back and learn from the development of the WK and WS?
    Not sure - I will have to ask JR Cox and get back to you.
    Mark C

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Shooter View Post
    Is there an official date for the R18's release next year?
    Short answer is "No". The intent was to have the first production rifles rolling off of the assembly line as we speak, to the tune of several hundred rifles per month. The accuracy issue with the current "Pencil" Barrel has delayed things somewhat and production of complete rifles cannot occur until the accuracy issue is addressed. So, no firm date as yet.

    Notwithstanding the above, production of test-proven parts and complete assemblies (eg Lower Receivers), is ongoing. Once they have the right Barrel and reduced Gas Block combination, production of complete rifles will Commence immediately - like literally as soon as Barrels are available there will be R18s for sale through The Shooting Edge.

    Follow this thread for your best indication as to the start of retail sales. If not before Xmas, then certainly very early in 2022.
    Last edited by Bartok5; 12-02-2021 at 05:16 PM.
    Mark C

  5. #275
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    On the 9 Hole Reviews Practical Accuracy Test for the What Would Stoner Do 2000 rifle, which also has pencil barrel, they mention the barrel has difficulty with consistent zero when using suppressors, adding the following in the comments:

    Quote Originally Posted by 9 Hole Reviews in YouTube Comment
    Man i'd say the biggest issue with SOF use is with the suppressor weight causing the barrel droop. My retro Gordon Carbine has no issue like that and I suspect the reason is two fold: 1, the free float barrel with no secondary support point, 2, the Gordon using a reflex suppressor, giving it two points of contact to stiffen the barrel up.

    Not saying that's a big issue for civvy use, but for SOF use, being unable to use a can is a no-go. It's also not that hard to solve with a fluted barrel to increase barrel stiffness.

    Not sure if this is similar to the issue with the barrel harmonics and the gas block/piston hanging off of it for the R18, but hopefully it is an indicator a slightly heaver/stiffer barrel will be of help. The WWSD has a lighter, non adjustable gas block and a gas tube hanging off it, so it can get away with maintaining accuracy with an extremely light barrel profile with no suppressor is involved. Hopefully we can see similar accuracy on the R18 with a slightly heavier barrel to deal with barrel harmonics and the weight of piston/gas block.

    Assuming there's no outstanding issues between TSE and ATRS, it might be a good idea to have them send a barrel down while you wait for your Ontario manufacturer; it can be alternate local source, and people may want to source from there themselves if the R18 is ever released in build kit form.
    Last edited by Ustauk; 12-02-2021 at 06:35 PM.

  6. #276
    Super GunNutz Bartok5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    On the 9 Hole Reviews Practical Accuracy Test for the What Would Stoner Do 2000 rifle, which also has pencil barrel, they mention the barrel has difficulty with consistent zero when using suppressors, adding the following in the comments:



    Not sure if this is similar to the issue with the barrel harmonics and the gas block/piston hanging off of it for the R18, but hopefully it is an indicator a slightly heaver/stiffer barrel will be of help. The WWSD has a lighter, non adjustable gas block and a gas tube hanging off it, so it can get away with maintaining accuracy with an extremely light barrel profile with no suppressor is involved. Hopefully we can see similar accuracy on the R18 with a slightly heavier barrel to deal with barrel harmonics and the weight of piston/gas block.

    Assuming there's no outstanding issues between TSE and ATRS, it might be a good idea to have them send a barrel down while you wait for your Ontario manufacturer; it can be alternate local source, and people may want to source from there themselves if the R18 is ever released in build kit form.
    You raise some good points for consideration. It would seem that pencil-profile Barrels have their limitations, dependant on just how thin you go. One point to note is that the WWSD rifle gets away with a stationary Gas Tube and a low-profile Gas Block, whereas the R18 must contend with a much heavier Gas Piston literally slamming back and forth with every shot fired. The AR180B Gas System on the R18 exerts far more stress on the Barrel and Gas Block than a Direct-Impingement System's stationary Gas Tube. That is simply an inescapable fact of the operating system that was chosen for the R18 for uniquely "Canadian" reasons.

    I am not privy to the relationship (if any) between TSE and ATRS, so will leave any such arrangement to the discretion of JR Cox. The barrels being sourced out of Ontario are high-quality tubes, air-gauged, stress-relieved, etc, etc. I am quite confident that a slightly heavier Barrel profile between the Chamber and the Gas Block will pay dividends in terms of grouping consistency. It ony stands to reason. The real question is "how heavy is heavy enough"? At the end of the day, SAI wants the lightest barrel that will provide consistent accuracy results. 1 MOA 5-round groups at 100m with Match-Grade ammo would be ideal. 2 MOA with bulk 55gr PMC XTac would be similarly acceptable. SAI are just not quite there yet. The good news is that "adequate" is not good enough for either SAI or JR Cox at TSE. Barrel and Gas Block refinement will continue until acceptable accuracy results are achieved, with retail sales to quickly follow ASAP.
    Mark C

  7. #277
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    SAI may also want to get the dimensions of the Brownell's BRN-180 barrel for comparison sake. It too uses a near rifle length gas port with piston and gas block, and they may have run into similar issues, so seeing where they settled on their final product may be useful. I couldn't find a picture of their 18.5" barrel, but here's one of their 16" barrel:

    Quote Originally Posted by Brownells.com
    Also useful may be the dimensions of the IBI barrels used by the previous but not longer produced premium 180 based offering, the Range Warrior Accessories RWA180B. I believe that my have also used a rifle length gas port. There weren't too many made, so it might be difficult to find a sample for comparison.
    Last edited by Ustauk; 12-02-2021 at 07:53 PM.

  8. #278
    CGN Regular 2CentTactical's Avatar
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    Heavier barrel and 1/7 twist would be sweet but I'll settle for one of the two.

  9. #279
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    Interesting to see that the BRN-180 has a much heavier Barrel between the Chamber and the Gas Block as compared to the "Pencil" Barrel forward of the Gas Block. I believe that is where SAI is headed with the revised Barrel....

    E.T.A. I just measured the "Pencil" Barrel on my AR15 SP1 and it tapers from .675" in front of the Chamber, down to .610" before the Gas Block. It would seem that nobody goes below .6" Barrel diameter for successful pencil-profile Barrels. More evidence suggesting that SAI needs to increase the diameter of their Barrel by at least 1/10"...
    Last edited by Bartok5; 12-03-2021 at 03:05 AM.
    Mark C

  10. #280
    CGN Ultra frequent flyer beltfed's Avatar
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    The WK barrel measured .75" in front of the chamber shank out to just before the gas port journal, then flared out to form a shoulder for the gas block. Gas block was standard .75", then tapered again to .65" to just short of the muzzle. I fear they cut too much out from the chamber to the gas block, and that was a carbine length gas system. Quite light, and yes, the rifle was nose heavy. I don't think there really is much to be able to mitigate that other than balancing the overall weight of the rifle out.
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    Posts made by the pseudonym "Beltfed" may not accurately reflect the beliefs and opinions of the Registered User.

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