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Thread: The R18 Mk2 Review Pt 2 Live Fire Reliabllity and Accuracy Results

  1. #311
    Super GunNutz Bartok5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lover Of Auroras View Post
    If we're paying upwards of 2600 dollars on a rifle we expect performance proportional to the price tag.
    See, that's the thing though - just what does $2600 buy you on the current Canadian NR market, and what are reasonable expectations for the resultant rifle? The days of $650 AR15s are long gone and (apparently) never coming back. With our "boutique" maufacturers being forced by economics to do do low-rate production of billet-machined Receivers (vice forgings), costs automatically skyrocket due to increased machine time. The realistic truth is that $2600 of Canadian-manufactured R18 gets you roughly what $1000 worth of forged AR15 used to buy. Some enhanced controls, AR-style ergonomics, a quality barrel (pencil or medium-weight, your choice), reliable function and reasonable accuracy.

    An AR180 Short-Stroke Piston operating system is very different from the AR15's DI system when it comes to accuracy potential. Given the heavier moving parts of the AR-180 Gas System, it stands to reason that they will degrade the natural accuracy potential of the rifle. The Gas Piston system may even cause flexing of the thin "Pencil Barrel" with a different return to the gas parts at "rest" each time the rifle is fired. This is why the R18 "Pencil" Barrel gets 2-2.5 MOA with standard PMC X-Tac 55 gr Ball rather than the 1.5 MOA that you might expect from a rack-grade AR15.

    Expectations have to be lowered in the post-AR15 age in Canada. Boutique manufacturers of new firearms specific to the Canadian market do not have the economies of large-scale production that US AR15 manufacturers enjoy. Canadian-made rifles are going to cost double what an AR15 used to cost, and may not perform to the same standard of accuracy (or reliability). That is a hard truth that many Canadian firearms owners have yet to hoist aboard....
    Mark C

  2. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by zupermann View Post
    Back in the day (and even today with non restricted semis), we/I would successfully shoot small targets (like gophers and other pests) at ranges limited only by ones caliber selection...

    You see...there are many uses for these types of rifles beyond what the gov't says.
    Sure I get that gopher use, I wonder how many people actually do that though.

    You see...there are many ways to communicate something, and random second liners don't add value

  3. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lover Of Auroras View Post
    If we're paying upwards of 2600 dollars on a rifle we expect performance proportional to the price tag.
    Price and accuracy are not directly correlated. Location of manufacture, materials used, number being made etc. etc. all factor in.

  4. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartok5 View Post
    See, that's the thing though - just what does $2600 buy you on the current Canadian NR market, and what are reasonable expectations for the resultant rifle? The days of $650 AR15s are long gone and (apparently) never coming back. With our "boutique" maufacturers being forced by economics to do do low-rate production of billet-machined Receivers (vice forgings), costs automatically skyrocket due to increased machine time. The realistic truth is that $2600 of Canadian-manufactured R18 gets you roughly what $1000 worth of forged AR15 used to buy. Some enhanced controls, AR-style ergonomics, a quality barrel (pencil or medium-weight, your choice), reliable function and reasonable accuracy.

    An AR180 Short-Stroke Piston operating system is very different from the AR15's DI system when it comes to accuracy potential. Given the heavier moving parts of the AR-180 Gas System, it stands to reason that they will degrade the natural accuracy potential of the rifle. The Gas Piston system may even cause flexing of the thin "Pencil Barrel" with a different return to the gas parts at "rest" each time the rifle is fired. This is why the R18 "Pencil" Barrel gets 2-2.5 MOA with standard PMC X-Tac 55 gr Ball rather than the 1.5 MOA that you might expect from a rack-grade AR15.

    Expectations have to be lowered in the post-AR15 age in Canada. Boutique manufacturers of new firearms specific to the Canadian market do not have the economies of large-scale production that US AR15 manufacturers enjoy. Canadian-made rifles are going to cost double what an AR15 used to cost, and may not perform to the same standard of accuracy (or reliability). That is a hard truth that many Canadian firearms owners have yet to hoist aboard....
    The hard, bitter truth... Frankly to me, the part that irks me is the lower reliability. Reliability trumps everything. I'll take a 3-4MOA rifle if it's reliable and has a very long MTBF.

  5. #315
    Super GunNutz Bartok5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 421SuperDuty View Post
    The hard, bitter truth... Frankly to me, the part that irks me is the lower reliability. Reliability trumps everything. I'll take a 3-4MOA rifle if it's reliable and has a very long MTBF.
    Agreed. Fortunately, unlike some of the lower-cost competition, the R18 Mk2 rifle that I am testing is over 1000 rounds without a single stoppage attributable to the rifle. Stoppages to date have all been magazine related (tight rivets, etc). The overall reliability and the individual durability of components have both been excellent thus far. No parts breakage, no loose parts, nothing of the sort. The R18 is just as solid as when I first received it off the pre-production assembly line.
    Mark C

  6. #316
    CGN Regular Jacobean's Avatar
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    Curious what the performance difference between 1000 slow, steady rounds, and 1000 3-gun/run and gun style rounds would be. I'm inclined to agree on both sides of the accuracy debate; 2moa is a respectable ask from a Canadian made NR. But also inclined to agree that price should reflect an increase, albeit not directly correlated.

    As mentioned above by FraserGreen,

    Quote Originally Posted by FraserGreen View Post
    Price and accuracy are not directly correlated. Location of manufacture, materials used, number being made etc. etc. all factor in.
    However with that said, when we are trying to compare apples to apples here, we're able to come pretty close when it comes to recent Canadian made AR180 variants considering the above factors. We have now seen the full spectrum, of initial offerings being warrantied en mass, to new productions holding their own and even being produced with major upgraded parts, to the soon to be released "creme de la creme", showing no signs of slowing down. But this is all to say, as competitors begin to learn from the market and creep ever closer to many of the promises this rifle makes, it does cause the consumer to sit and scratch their head wondering if the $1000 difference pays for a handful of unique upgrades (depending on personal taste) and reliability (seemingly at par with other offerings as of late), considering it's a 66% upgrade and mid-gen competing models are grouping similarly with bottom shelf ammo (1.5-2 MOA, 55gr Federal Independence).

    It's also worth mentioning that the price point has settled itself to compete almost directly with the X95. Is it a different offering? Very much so, in virtually every way mechanically. However, it's still a semi NR in 5.56, and it can't be ignored that a rifle with a battle tested tried and true history can attribute some of it's value to that level of quality.

    To speak to the accuracy debate a bit further/sidestep, whats "good" or not for the price aside, something I noticed during the initial tear down was the analysis of the "Sandwiching" System:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartok5 View Post
    The Barrel attachment system is believed by the developers to enhance the overall accuracy potential of the rifle. We shall see about that.
    Has this been analyzed as a potential culprit, either alone or in tandem with issues already identified?

  7. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by 421SuperDuty View Post
    The hard, bitter truth... Frankly to me, the part that irks me is the lower reliability. Reliability trumps everything. I'll take a 3-4MOA rifle if it's reliable and has a very long MTBF.
    Agreed, while accuracy can fall to a degree I don't believe it fair to say that reliability can.

    I also think that as there are plenty of large machine shops down south that while we may not want to a good number of pieces can be made in the USA and benefit from the manufacturing economies of scale. Of course there must also be purchasing EOS too.

  8. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobean View Post
    It's also worth mentioning that the price point has settled itself to compete almost directly with the X95. Is it a different offering? Very much so, in virtually every way mechanically. However, it's still a semi NR in 5.56, and it can't be ignored that a rifle with a battle tested tried and true history can attribute some of it's value to that level of quality.
    This, the X-95, like it or not is a $2600 rifle made by a big manufacturer on the back of a big govt design budget and years of improvements. If you're going to try and muscle in price wise on it's price territory you better be able to show why.

    I personally do want an R11 but I will not put the money down until after it has shown it's colours.

  9. #319
    Super GunNutz Bartok5's Avatar
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    Curious as to what constitutes "showing one's colours"? If combat is your Metric, then the R18 will never compete. If you are after flawless reliability, I have gone just over 1K rounds, a goodly percentage of which was intended to replicate "running and gunning" by firing multiple pistol magazines in quick succession, getting the Barrel good and hot and even the Upper Receiver and Trunnion nice and warm.

    Nobody has considered the Barrel-Mounting System as the accuracy culprit mostly because the 4 bolts have remained torqued and because the Barrel has remained solid in its mount. Frankly, there are far more likely culprits in the "Pencil"-profile Barrel and the chunky Gas System.

    The intent of the R18 is not to compete with the Tavor. If some values the combat pedigree above all else, then the Tavor is the obvious choice. If, on the other hand you wish to buy Canadian and/or you prefer a conventional rifle layout with AR15 ergonomics, then the R18 might be your huckleberry.
    Last edited by Bartok5; 12-06-2021 at 10:57 PM.
    Mark C

  10. #320
    Member AskMeAboutMyBandcamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FraserGreen View Post
    This, the X-95, like it or not is a $2600 rifle made by a big manufacturer on the back of a big govt design budget and years of improvements. If you're going to try and muscle in price wise on it's price territory you better be able to show why.

    I personally do want an R11 but I will not put the money down until after it has shown it's colours.
    I'll put the money down right frickin' now lol. When's this thing available?! I'll take a pencil barrel without problem!

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