Best 5.56 rifle right now?
- Thread starter CdnLibertarian
- Start date
I don't understand what you mean by that. It is called SL8-4, same as the SL8-5 but shorter rail without the sights.
Here is my take. Get the Tavor if you like the value and resale value. The type97 version 3 is probably the best deal out there, I have no idea if new ones will come to the market ever again. From what I have seen, it is more accurate than the X95, just the safety is kind of oddly placed, trigger is similar to the X95 but no after market trigger like for the X95 - but the aftermarket triggers for the X95 are expensive anyways, most people shy away from that.
You want to buy one which takes AR magazines, cheap and they come in all kind of variations, even as 10 rounder short pistol magazines. You really want that, especially with our mag limit in Canada and for bench rest shooting.
That sets the SL8 back since the magazines are proprietary and the short 5 rounders are rare and expensive. It can be modified to take standard G36 magazines or the Pmags can be filed but you still have a long 30 round magazine which makes bench rest shooting very hard. Everything on the SL8 is not interchangeable with other rifles, even if you take the rail off, you can't find nice scope mounting solution. Then it is also front heavy. As much as I like the SL8, you may want to think twice.
The next one is the BCL Siberian and since there were no recent bad reviews, I assume it is reliable. More than the WK180 gen 2 which is a few hundred cheaper but not shy of horror stories when it comes to failures.
So first is the X95 if you don't mind the price, then the T97 gen 3, then the Siberian.
Unpopular opinion but I choose to keep my Siberian over my NR Bren 2 for a couple reasons.
The Bren is insanely expensive for what it is, it’s a $2200 gun tops, even with the “NR tax”. My Siberian can shoot +\- 2” groups all day with the cheapest 55g bulk ammo I have, the Bren can’t tighten below 3.5”, opens right up when hot whereas the Siberian stays about consistent.
I sold the Bren and bought more ammo and a better scope, much better off.
I have a Raven on the way, reviews are looking good, if it’s compares with my Siberian I’ll be happy.
PS my Siberian is at about 1000rds, so not very much. There have been zero malfunctions, I use mainly 458 socom, and 50 Beowulf mags.
The Bren is insanely expensive for what it is, it’s a $2200 gun tops, even with the “NR tax”. My Siberian can shoot +\- 2” groups all day with the cheapest 55g bulk ammo I have, the Bren can’t tighten below 3.5”, opens right up when hot whereas the Siberian stays about consistent.
I sold the Bren and bought more ammo and a better scope, much better off.
I have a Raven on the way, reviews are looking good, if it’s compares with my Siberian I’ll be happy.
PS my Siberian is at about 1000rds, so not very much. There have been zero malfunctions, I use mainly 458 socom, and 50 Beowulf mags.
Webley No.5
CGN Regular
- Location
- Rural Alberta/Calgary
I don't understand what is meant by its difficult to mount a scope to the SL8 just mount it to the supplied rail like anything else. Also you can order mag well adaptors to use stanag mags. The sphur ones have a good rep but aren't always easy to find but ##### armory brings in the Tommy built ones. Personally I like my sl8 over my type 97 as I like to benchrest and shoot at distance if I'm going to use centerline ammo. For shooting off hand under 100m I plink with 22lr for cheapness mostly.
If you don't mind the firearm being heavier, reports on the Crusader Arm's Templar dependability have been good to date. Even with the ACR-esque stock and Triggertech trigger, it can be within your budget. You can get it with a milspec trigger to save funds and/or get it in Solo mode with a 1913 rail for the stock to use an existing 1913 stock or procure one of your choice. There may also be a buffer tube version out at retailers, but it is no longer on Crusader's site. There are some issues noted in this Reddit thread, https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaguns/comments/10yxu41/crusader_arms_templar_crusader_9_maintenance_tips/ , so please not them prior to purchasing.
I don't have experience with every semi in the Canadian market, but the ones I have used I have extensive experience with 
For reliability and "modern" style function, Tavor checks most of the boxes except for price and if you don't like bullpups. The X95 is for sure an improvement in ergonomics over the first design, but they are both extremely reliable. You can abuse the hell out of a Tavor and it keeps on running.
I have 3 WS-MCR, all around 10K round count and other than replacing a few minor parts here and there (firing pin, firing pin spring, hammer/trigger pins) they have been very reliable, and reasonably accurate, too. Downside is they are a bit clunky and heavy, but that may not be an issue, depending on what you are doing.
I have one Gen 1 WK-180 which I find is a bit lighter and more ergonomic with the thinner barrel and half size handguard, compared to the MCR. It only has about 5000 rounds through it but I've had to replace the hammer and trigger pin, and pin that holds the ejector in has worked it's way free a few times and jams it up. I think the hole in the bolt for the pin is a but oversized, maybe. But that happened early on and it's gone about 3000 rounds without working itself out now.
My friend has a BCL Siberian and if I was going to do it all over again I would probably go that route, as it's a much more refined version of the MCR/WK. More ergonomic, less "clunky" and is pretty accurate, too. He only has 1500 rounds through it though, so time will tell on it's reliability. I think he said that he was going to clean it at this point, too.
I don't have a T97 but another friend (since moved away)had one and it seemed quite reliable. I was actually pretty impressed with it when I shot it. I guess I thought it was going to be a bit junky but it wasn't at all.
At the risk of being labelled a heretic, I actually prefer some of our available semi's over the AR15. I find the Tavor more reliable and compact and I find the various 180 models to have better accuracy and better recoil impulse than most off the shelf AR15's I've owned. They also don't get as dirty and require less maintenance. AR15's with DI get filthy in comparison. The real downside to the 180's we have compared to the AR15 is the lack of mass production like the AR15 so the price of a 180 style is simply higher for what you get.
For reliability and "modern" style function, Tavor checks most of the boxes except for price and if you don't like bullpups. The X95 is for sure an improvement in ergonomics over the first design, but they are both extremely reliable. You can abuse the hell out of a Tavor and it keeps on running.
I have 3 WS-MCR, all around 10K round count and other than replacing a few minor parts here and there (firing pin, firing pin spring, hammer/trigger pins) they have been very reliable, and reasonably accurate, too. Downside is they are a bit clunky and heavy, but that may not be an issue, depending on what you are doing.
I have one Gen 1 WK-180 which I find is a bit lighter and more ergonomic with the thinner barrel and half size handguard, compared to the MCR. It only has about 5000 rounds through it but I've had to replace the hammer and trigger pin, and pin that holds the ejector in has worked it's way free a few times and jams it up. I think the hole in the bolt for the pin is a but oversized, maybe. But that happened early on and it's gone about 3000 rounds without working itself out now.
My friend has a BCL Siberian and if I was going to do it all over again I would probably go that route, as it's a much more refined version of the MCR/WK. More ergonomic, less "clunky" and is pretty accurate, too. He only has 1500 rounds through it though, so time will tell on it's reliability. I think he said that he was going to clean it at this point, too.
I don't have a T97 but another friend (since moved away)had one and it seemed quite reliable. I was actually pretty impressed with it when I shot it. I guess I thought it was going to be a bit junky but it wasn't at all.
At the risk of being labelled a heretic, I actually prefer some of our available semi's over the AR15. I find the Tavor more reliable and compact and I find the various 180 models to have better accuracy and better recoil impulse than most off the shelf AR15's I've owned. They also don't get as dirty and require less maintenance. AR15's with DI get filthy in comparison. The real downside to the 180's we have compared to the AR15 is the lack of mass production like the AR15 so the price of a 180 style is simply higher for what you get.
CdnLibertarian
Member
I thought the Siberian had lots of problems with the gas block and whatnot, I actually love how that rifle looks the best but was scared
CdnLibertarian
Member
I don't have experience with every semi in the Canadian market, but the ones I have used I have extensive experience with
For reliability and "modern" style function, Tavor checks most of the boxes except for price and if you don't like bullpups. The X95 is for sure an improvement in ergonomics over the first design, but they are both extremely reliable. You can abuse the hell out of a Tavor and it keeps on running.
I have 3 WS-MCR, all around 10K round count and other than replacing a few minor parts here and there (firing pin, firing pin spring, hammer/trigger pins) they have been very reliable, and reasonably accurate, too. Downside is they are a bit clunky and heavy, but that may not be an issue, depending on what you are doing.
I have one Gen 1 WK-180 which I find is a bit lighter and more ergonomic with the thinner barrel and half size handguard, compared to the MCR. It only has about 5000 rounds through it but I've had to replace the hammer and trigger pin, and pin that holds the ejector in has worked it's way free a few times and jams it up. I think the hole in the bolt for the pin is a but oversized, maybe. But that happened early on and it's gone about 3000 rounds without working itself out now.
My friend has a BCL Siberian and if I was going to do it all over again I would probably go that route, as it's a much more refined version of the MCR/WK. More ergonomic, less "clunky" and is pretty accurate, too. He only has 1500 rounds through it though, so time will tell on it's reliability. I think he said that he was going to clean it at this point, too.
I don't have a T97 but another friend (since moved away)had one and it seemed quite reliable. I was actually pretty impressed with it when I shot it. I guess I thought it was going to be a bit junky but it wasn't at all.
At the risk of being labelled a heretic, I actually prefer some of our available semi's over the AR15. I find the Tavor more reliable and compact and I find the various 180 models to have better accuracy and better recoil impulse than most off the shelf AR15's I've owned. They also don't get as dirty and require less maintenance. AR15's with DI get filthy in comparison. The real downside to the 180's we have compared to the AR15 is the lack of mass production like the AR15 so the price of a 180 style is simply higher for what you get.
Surprised to hear another endorsement of the Siberian, I heard and seen lots of horror stories on here but this is reassuring. I might just go with that tbh. Thanks for the info.
Well well, but not at that price point. That would be the VZ58/CZ858.
If you scroll up a little bit, you will see that the Bren2 has horrible accuracy? How can this count for "best rifle out there".
Best hyped rifle maybe.
Having owned one I can't speak to where that accuracy report came from. Mine is not that. As for the VZ design good luck buying one legally and using it.
I'd start with in Service usage rifles, the list is very narrow. They've gone through the most extensive testing and live combat. Narrow that down to Stanag pattern magazine compatibility (most desire this). The end list gets you to G36, Tavor, CZ Bren 2, B&Ts are also very nice but even more $ than the Bren and also not a better rifle.
I will admit I'm biased towards duty usage and sport shooting and if anyone has ever carried/competed with a rifle you know what the most effective tool is pretty quick. Unfortunately we are left with very few higher quality options now and a low price point isn't there.
I'd start with in Service usage rifles, the list is very narrow. They've gone through the most extensive testing and live combat. Narrow that down to Stanag pattern magazine compatibility (most desire this). The end list gets you to G36, Tavor, CZ Bren 2, B&Ts are also very nice but even more $ than the Bren and also not a better rifle.
I will admit I'm biased towards duty usage and sport shooting and if anyone has ever carried/competed with a rifle you know what the most effective tool is pretty quick. Unfortunately we are left with very few higher quality options now and a low price point isn't there.
I had terrible experience with the Bren 2. Bought it with every upgrade possible from HB industries and Haga defence. Put a primary arms plx c 1-8x and went to sight it in. I honest to god thought I didn’t torque the scope mount properly at first the accuracy was that bad. Eventually settled with a 6” 5 shot group with 55g bulk ammo. Took it the next weekend to a 3 gun comp and had a failure early in the day that left it unusable. Sent it back and had a new barrel put on, when I got it back I was still unimpressed but the accuracy did improve to about 3.5” group. Accuracy was trash when hot.
I hope I’m the only one who has this bad of an experience with one, but even still I believe they are heavily over priced. IMO if you had $4k to spend on a Bren 2 I would suggest to buy a Siberian (or possibly a Raven) and spend the rest on quality glass (NOT vortex) and mount.
I hope I’m the only one who has this bad of an experience with one, but even still I believe they are heavily over priced. IMO if you had $4k to spend on a Bren 2 I would suggest to buy a Siberian (or possibly a Raven) and spend the rest on quality glass (NOT vortex) and mount.
I think your results are more unique. That is actually the worst CZ Bren 2 story I've read! Even 3.5" is bad! It is by no means as accurate as an AR but it's military accurate. For 3gun I find it totally acceptable. I'd take it over my duty C8. I also agree with having a good optic and ammo. I had an MCR but the magazine release caused issues and it didn't accept Pmags. My friend has a Crusader and they have great customer service. I also don't put any added benefit to N/R rifles vs restricted so that again factors in my decision making.
So, one former owner (ColinD), who doesn't like the perceived value versus pricing, claims the Bren 2 can't group less than 3.5 MOA when cold and opens up when hot. And based on that singular comment, you choose to perpetuate the negativity by stating as "accepted fact" that the Bren 2 has "horrible" accuracy. I call Bull-####e. Your hasty acceptance of "ColinD's" claim, with nothing else to reinforce or validate his opinion, suggests that you have an axe to grind against that particular firearm. if that is the case, why not just tell us your own first-hand findings regarding the CZ Bren 2?
FWIW, my Bren 2 exhibits typical accuracy for a 5.56mm/.223 cal, gas-operated, modern sporting rifle, typically producing 2 MOA 10-round groups at 100m with bulk PMC 62gr XTac ammo and 1.5 MOA 5-round groups with Federal 69gr Gold Medal Match. I have witnessed zero POI-shift nor perceptible expansion of group sizes as my rifle heats up through normal use, including limited "Rapid fire" (albeit with 5-round mags). The CZ Bren 2 Factory barrels are quality tubes - Cold-Hammer Forged (CHF), and properly stress-relieved - such that they are the equal of any other major manufacturer offering CHF Barrels. To suggest that the Bren 2 has "horrible" accuracy is to spread unsubstantiated disinformation, period. That is what you are doing, Fritzhanzel - perpetuating disinformation regarding the Bren 2's accuracy. Needless to say, your bias is showing....
Do we even know if "ColinD's" Bren 2 is sporting a factory CZ barrel? And in what length? To my knowledge, mine is one of a very few "Factory" 14" Barreled Rifles in Canada. The rest are (at best) 11" Factory Carbine Barrels, or aftermarket Non-Restricted length tubes of indeterminate origin. Short carbine barrels are hardly conducive to optimal accuracy results, and aftermarket Barrels are an accuracy crap-shoot at the best of times.
As for the VZ-58, it is a heavily-dated design from the 1950s that is badly in need of ergonomic enhancement. The baseline ergos are crap, from the Selector Lever to the Bolt Catch. The rifle is nowhere near Optics-Ready, with most of the various flimsy optics mounting solutions emanating from China. Sacrifice your Rear Iron Sight in order to mount a Miniature Red Dot Sight (MRDS)? Not a bloody chance! Yes, the VZ58 is light and handy and fires and intermediate cartridge. That's about where the positives end. The "best rifle out there?" Not by a long shot....
As "Johhny12gauge" suggested, take a look at the small arms everyone in Europe is currently rearming themselves with. The short list consists of the HK416 (France and likely Germany) and the CZ Bren 2 (Czech Republic, Hungary, Ukraine, France (GIGN), etc). If you discount the minor-power outliers like the Latvians with their LMT piston-driven AR rifles, the Slovenians with the bizarre FN FS2000, or the Lithuanians with the dated HK G36 and that's what you are left with. The 416 and the Bren 2 are neck and neck for European ground forces rearmament. If the latter truly exhibited "horrible accuracy", I'm sure that we would have heard about it from various credible national trials reports long before now. The Bren 2 "horrible accuracy" theory simply holds no water as it makes no sense whatsoever.
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Colin, what barrel did you have on your Bren 2 during your initial (unacceptable) accuracy testing? And what barrel was it replaced with following your unacceptable results from the first zeroing trip? My point here, is that I don't believe you are operating with a factory CZ Bren 2 Barrel in any of your accuracy testing. My best guess (prove me wrong) is that you are shooting a Bren 2 retro-fitted with a NR Barrel of indeterminate origin. If that is the case, then the poor accuracy cannot be blamed on the CZ Bren 2, as it is no longer that rifle. It is a Bren 2 fitted with an aftermarket barrel that may or may not have been properly mounted, head-spaced, etc. Or it may just be a low-end Barrel blank that they (whoever did the re-barreling) chose for cost-saving reasons. My point is that once you removed the factory CZ Barrel, all expectations for factory-level accuracy became null and void. You are no longer shooting a factory CZ Bren 2 when it has been fitted with an aftermarket barrel, which is the "heart and soul" of the rifle. That fact must be pointed out in any discussion of accuracy, reliability, or overall performance, lest you sow confusion regarding the respective capabilities of the factory rifle versus a rifle retrofitted with a (lesser quality?) aftermarket Barrel.
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Sorry I didn’t make clear in my previous post that this was a retrofitted non-restricted version. I assumed the thread was discussing best NR options.
You’re absolutely right. This was a retro fitted NR Bren 2, that is a good point to make clear. I don’t think anyone in Canada has a factory NR length Bren. I won’t point out where I got it as they were above and beyond with addressing the problem that required a new barrel, and there’s no need to single them out as I know they’ve made many more without issue. I also still shop there almost exclusively and have no ill feelings.
I also want to point out again that the accuracy results were from bulk 55g ammo. I’m sure a heavier bullet or a tuned load would have gotten much better results, I think thats obvious with most rifles.
Honestly if I could get my hands on a factory NR Bren 2 I probably (I stress probably as I mostly can’t help myself) wouldn’t, unless the price was about the same as a factory restricted. I do find the shorter ones way more appealing and would pay for one if we didn’t have restricted class and the limitations that it comes with.
Let’s be real on current cost for a retrofit NR Bren 2. You’re already paying a premium over factory cost. I get it, there is material and labour involved in the process. On top of that you’re going to need to spend another $600 (I think) on a handguard to replace that super short one unless you’re one of the few who got a converted 16”. That puts the price tag above $4k once the taxman and postage is paid. IMO the rifle isn’t worth that, and for that doe you’re better off kitting out a cheaper option. Your mileage may vary.
If OP didn’t care if his new rifle was restricted, I would suggest a factory Bren 2. Like I mentioned the price tag on one vs a NR converted model is more in line for its value. The 14” version that Bartok has is definitely the best version IMO in regards to looks and performance. This platform has a long receiver so it feels longer than what you might be used to if you’re coming from mainly using AR’s.
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I checked youtube and if you would bother doing the same, you would find out that your "results" are more optimistic than any of those.
Average is around 5/6 inch groups and most tight group is 2 inches.
And obviously you don't know anything about the VZ58 and optics mounting, it comes with the side rail and VZ offered mounts which are even today most sought after,
Then you could mount the extention to the rear as well and so on, but why do I talk to somebody who has no clue?
Your posts are always entertaining, one day you rave about one rifle, 3 weeks later you post "I have to sell due to financial restraints" and now you spend 4 or 5 K on the Bren 2.
Dude, I have patience, not sure how much.
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