Post bill C-21 - Are these good beginner options?

[GliderBuzz]

Now that the dreaded C-21 passed, I am contemplating just saying #### it and buy some starter options. Are these OK for someone who is starting? The main use is just for plinking, no hunting.

Caliber             Firearm                    Reason
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.22LR               Rugger 10/22               For someone to plink at my expense
12GA                Remington 870              No collection is complete without a 12ga
.223 Rem/5.56x45    Lockhart Tactical Raven    Semi-auto, mag fed 5.56
.308 Win/7.62x51    Remington 700              Bolt-action with a punch

[thegazelle]

The 10/22 was my first gun, so certainly I would recommend it to anyone for something reliable to get started. Simple design, reliable, customizable. You may also want to consider the Savage A22 as well. I was going to say GSG-16, but that's been on the government's hitlist.

870 is pretty reliable - that was my first shotgun, though the factory buttpad (at least on my 2005 model) has the consistency of a hockey puck. Not the most comfortable shooting. But between that and the Mossberg 590, it's a good starter shotgun option. Personally I would also consider a Benelli Supernova as a fantastic beginner shotgun.

Can't comment on the Raven, BUT have heard good things about it from other owners. Personally for a 5.56/.223, I'd recommend a Tavor X95, but that's also on the government hitlist, so keep that in mind...

Remington 700 - can't go wrong with this - generations of shooters have owned this truly reliable, ageless bolt action.

Now, since they are still available and if you aren't one that is sheepish about what they may ban or not ban, perhaps consider a 9mm carbine like the Ruger PC Carbine or Freedom Ordnance FX9. Both are fun plinking guns and if you like attaching accessories, etc, they are great. I'd personally prefer the FX9 for ease of takedown and similar AR-style controls.

[GliderBuzz]

Thanks for the reply and recommendations!

I have been lurking around for a while and picked up a few things on the way so far.

The 10/22 was my first gun, so certainly I would recommend it to anyone for something reliable to get started. Simple design, reliable, customizable. You may also want to consider the Savage A22 as well. I was going to say GSG-16, but that's been on the government's hitlist.

I read around here the Savage have a "cheap" feel while another user regretted buying the GSG. I noticed .22LR rifles have high availability in general, so no fear of going out of stock so soon.

870 is pretty reliable - that was my first shotgun, though the factory buttpad (at least on my 2005 model) has the consistency of a hockey puck. Not the most comfortable shooting. But between that and the Mossberg 590, it's a good starter shotgun option. Personally I would also consider a Benelli Supernova as a fantastic beginner shotgun.

The Remington 870 has plenty of options, but I noticed diminished availability in the Canadian retailers. I'll check out the Mossberg 590 and Beneli Supernova!

Can't comment on the Raven, BUT have heard good things about it from other owners. Personally for a 5.56/.223, I'd recommend a Tavor X95, but that's also on the government hitlist, so keep that in mind...

CZ Bren 2 Ms (NR) and IWI Tavor X95 (NR) were my first options, but they are out of stock everywhere. And, honestly, after the C-21, I don't think any retailer will be getting more with the risk of ban. At least the Raven I can order directly from the manufacturer.

Remington 700 - can't go wrong with this - generations of shooters have owned this truly reliable, ageless bolt action.

Fantastic! Now onto finding one!

Now, since they are still available and if you aren't one that is sheepish about what they may ban or not ban, perhaps consider a 9mm carbine like the Ruger PC Carbine or Freedom Ordnance FX9. Both are fun plinking guns and if you like attaching accessories, etc, they are great. I'd personally prefer the FX9 for ease of takedown and similar AR-style controls.

I'm so pissed off C-21 passed I'll get what I can, but I'm just not really a fan of pistol carbines. It just does not feel right. LOL. I'll keep these in mind, though.

[thegazelle]

I read around here the Savage have a "cheap" feel while another user regretted buying the GSG. I noticed .22LR rifles have high availability in general, so no fear of going out of stock so soon.

CZ Bren 2 Ms (NR) and IWI Tavor X95 (NR) were my first options, but they are out of stock everywhere. And, honestly, after the C-21, I don't think any retailer will be getting more with the risk of ban. At least the Raven I can order directly from the manufacturer.


I'm so pissed off C-21 passed I'll get what I can, but I'm just not really a fan of pistol carbines. It just does not feel right. LOL. I'll keep these in mind, though.

Regarding Savage - well, for sure no one would mistake them for high end firearms, and sure they may have a cheapness feel to them (because they are), BUT I will say this - my old Savage Mark II-G, which I paid very little for back in the day, is superb in terms of accuracy out of the box. I had it mated with some super cheap Bushnell fixed 4x32 scope I bought in the day - glass looks like someone rubbed vaseline on them compared to Leupolds, etc. Yes, my Mark II-G had issues with feeding with 10 round mags, but when it worked, it was super, and for the price, I couldn't lose. The A22 was also accurate out of the box. The trigger is not the greatest and I had a bolt issue which Savage/Stoeger fixed under warranty - again, for what I paid, I'm happy with the performance. Even my first precision rifle, it was a cheap Axis II Precision. It's no T3X but it was decent and took AICS mags and I enjoyed the feel of it (until I replaced it with the T3X TACT A1, which is far superior). As long as you know that Savage may feel cheap but is decent enough - it's good for starting one's collection.

I would never presume just because something is widely available now, means it will be in the future. Learned that the hard way in the past.

GSG - maybe it's a like or or hate it type of gun. Yes it is extremely plasticky feeling, because it's mostly plastic, but for look and feel, it's a hoot to shoot. But it is black and as such, it was on the G46 amendments list...and if the FAC does its review, I highly suspect it will just regurgitate that G46 list and start from there and add. Mendicino even intimated that's what will happen (I know he's no longer in that position, but I don't expect LeBlanc to take his foot off the gas on this either when pushing for stuff - as they are all beholden to these special interest groups and Poly types and doctors groups and Ken Price and his minions, etc...

Bren 2. Would have loved to have had one. My retailer had it when it came out but I don't have that kind of money at this point. I have heard nothing but positive things about it. X95 you can still get them on the EE and on the secondary market. Probably with the current war, we won't see them at retailers anytime soon. And you may be right about C21's effects. Sure, the immediate target are prospective new up-and-coming semi auto centerfire models, but with the reconstitution of the FAC and what we all believe will be an arbitrary OIC of their previous G4/G46 shopping list, retailers will undoubtedly think twice before stocking intermediate to large volumes of anything which may be on the chopping block. They have seen this play out before and don't want to get caught holding the bag.

But that said, this is probably as good of a time as any to pick up whatever you want, irrespective of what the government may / may not do. It is pretty much a foregone conclusion that the Liberals will not win the next election in any form - even the historically pro-Liberal pollsters have them behind now even in the best case scenario for them...it's only a matter of time before PP becomes PM. No one knows really how the gun file will shake out. If Raquel Dancho or Dane Lloyd or Glen Motz or Doug Shipley or Blaine Calkins becomes our PS minister, that would bode well for us. BUT until PP gets into power, it's hard to say what DEGREE of change he MAY make. I have my own thoughts and viewpoints, but just like everyone else, it's just speculation. Some people have shared the CSSA dinner video speech claiming he will reverse the 2020 OIC. I have seen nothing explicitly or otherwise implied indicating he will reverse that. He said he will stand up for gun owners and farmers and hunters and sport shooters, but the nuances of that statement will remain to be seen. From what I recall, it is more of a possibility that C21 will be repealed/replaced, but now that it is enshrined into law, who really knows what will happen. There will always be political capital considerations, and of course he will be facing a vitriolic media which will twist, distort and contort everything he says. So he would be wise to speak in generalities for now and not repeat O'Toole's mistake.

For PCCs - feel is obviously subjective, but it also depends on what you have tried. There is a huge difference in the feel of, say, a Sub2000 compared to an FX9 compared to a Kriss Vector.

[Potashminer]

I would go about it a bit different - generally I own very few semi-auto's - one .22 rimfire (a 10-22 that I bought circa 1976 or so) - other than that, all are manual operated - bolt action, hinge action or lever action. If you are just starting, consider something in 7.62x39 - typical would have been the SKS semi-auto's, but was also the CZ 527 and CZ527M and I am sure other brands like Ruger American. Do not get turned off too much about the corrosive ammo thing - is just a matter of being set up to flush several litres of good hot water through your bore at end of shooting day - that will take care of any "corrosive salts" in that barrel. You will still have to deal with the jacket fouling and the soot from burning gunpowder, but that is not unique to that cartridge.

Within past few months, I acquired a single shot lever action Ithaca M-49 in 22 Magnum - my "perfect" racoon gun. Is a lot of fun to be had, popping away with that thing. I also have a BRNO No. 1 and various CZ 452 - hard to go wrong with them - they seem to just work fine - no issues at all for .22 Long Rifle. For shotgunning, do not overlook a 20 gauge or a 28 gauge - I have both in over-under and a side-by-side 20 gauge "coach gun". When you want to go with a "big rifle" - a 308 Win is NOT big - I used one for circa 20 years as my deer rifle and took my first elk with it - there is now a 338 Win Mag, a 9.3x62 and soon to be .416 of some sort - once I receive that barrel. Let alone the 458 Win Mag, which is still not huge in the world of cartridges.

If you can get past the price of the ammo - maybe consider a 17 HMR - I have a Savage 93R17 - it sort of blurs the line between 22 Long Rifle and 22 Magnum. Every rifle that you buy will also likely include the requirement for scope bases, rings and a scope. For centre fires, that might get you into re-loading which requires dies, and various supplies - about no end to it, I suspect.

[GliderBuzz]

Thanks for your thoughts.

Regarding Savage - well, for sure no one would mistake them for high end firearms, and sure they may have a cheapness feel to them (because they are), BUT I will say this - my old Savage Mark II-G, which I paid very little for back in the day, is superb in terms of accuracy out of the box. I had it mated with some super cheap Bushnell fixed 4x32 scope I bought in the day - glass looks like someone rubbed vaseline on them compared to Leupolds, etc. Yes, my Mark II-G had issues with feeding with 10 round mags, but when it worked, it was super, and for the price, I couldn't lose. The A22 was also accurate out of the box. The trigger is not the greatest and I had a bolt issue which Savage/Stoeger fixed under warranty - again, for what I paid, I'm happy with the performance. Even my first precision rifle, it was a cheap Axis II Precision. It's no T3X but it was decent and took AICS mags and I enjoyed the feel of it (until I replaced it with the T3X TACT A1, which is far superior). As long as you know that Savage may feel cheap but is decent enough - it's good for starting one's collection.

Interesting. I'll see if I can find any Savage at a local store to check it myself.

I would never presume just because something is widely available now, means it will be in the future. Learned that the hard way in the past.

Absolutely. Just because it's easier to find now doesn't mean it will be available later. I thought more along the lines of ".22LR firearms won't go out of stock next week".

GSG - maybe it's a like or or hate it type of gun. Yes it is extremely plasticky feeling, because it's mostly plastic, but for look and feel, it's a hoot to shoot. But it is black and as such, it was on the G46 amendments list...and if the FAC does its review, I highly suspect it will just regurgitate that G46 list and start from there and add. Mendicino even intimated that's what will happen (I know he's no longer in that position, but I don't expect LeBlanc to take his foot off the gas on this either when pushing for stuff - as they are all beholden to these special interest groups and Poly types and doctors groups and Ken Price and his minions, etc...

Got it. Nothing against the GSG besides what I read here, and lack of interest, really. Regarding "scary black guns", I noticed the same. That's why I'm saying "#### it" and buying anyway. Learned the hard way when I missed the pistol boat (didn't have RPAL at the time).

Bren 2. Would have loved to have had one. My retailer had it when it came out but I don't have that kind of money at this point. I have heard nothing but positive things about it. X95 you can still get them on the EE and on the secondary market. Probably with the current war, we won't see them at retailers anytime soon. And you may be right about C21's effects. Sure, the immediate target are prospective new up-and-coming semi auto centerfire models, but with the reconstitution of the FAC and what we all believe will be an arbitrary OIC of their previous G4/G46 shopping list, retailers will undoubtedly think twice before stocking intermediate to large volumes of anything which may be on the chopping block. They have seen this play out before and don't want to get caught holding the bag.

Exactly. I don't blame retailers for looking after themselves in this mess. I'll try to join the EE group as suggested.

But that said, this is probably as good of a time as any to pick up whatever you want, irrespective of what the government may / may not do. It is pretty much a foregone conclusion that the Liberals will not win the next election in any form - even the historically pro-Liberal pollsters have them behind now even in the best case scenario for them...it's only a matter of time before PP becomes PM. No one knows really how the gun file will shake out. If Raquel Dancho or Dane Lloyd or Glen Motz or Doug Shipley or Blaine Calkins becomes our PS minister, that would bode well for us. BUT until PP gets into power, it's hard to say what DEGREE of change he MAY make. I have my own thoughts and viewpoints, but just like everyone else, it's just speculation. Some people have shared the CSSA dinner video speech claiming he will reverse the 2020 OIC. I have seen nothing explicitly or otherwise implied indicating he will reverse that. He said he will stand up for gun owners and farmers and hunters and sport shooters, but the nuances of that statement will remain to be seen. From what I recall, it is more of a possibility that C21 will be repealed/replaced, but now that it is enshrined into law, who really knows what will happen. There will always be political capital considerations, and of course he will be facing a vitriolic media which will twist, distort and contort everything he says. So he would be wise to speak in generalities for now and not repeat O'Toole's mistake.

100% agree things are uncertain and the hope now is for the Conservatives to win the next election.

For PCCs - feel is obviously subjective, but it also depends on what you have tried. There is a huge difference in the feel of, say, a Sub2000 compared to an FX9 compared to a Kriss Vector.

I knew the Kriss Vector as SMG. Is the Canadian Kriss Vector classified as PCC because of the longer barrel?

[GliderBuzz]

Thanks for the post!

I would go about it a bit different - generally I own very few semi-auto's - one .22 rimfire (a 10-22 that I bought circa 1976 or so) - other than that, all are manual operated - bolt action, hinge action or lever action.

Interesting. Any particular reason (reliability, maintenance, etc) or just personal preference?

If you are just starting, consider something in 7.62x39 - typical would have been the SKS semi-auto's, but was also the CZ 527 and CZ527M and I am sure other brands like Ruger American. Do not get turned off too much about the corrosive ammo thing - is just a matter of being set up to flush several litres of good hot water through your bore at end of shooting day - that will take care of any "corrosive salts" in that barrel. You will still have to deal with the jacket fouling and the soot from burning gunpowder, but that is not unique to that cartridge.

Thanks for the maintenance tips! I won't deny that ammo availability is also something that's on the back of my mind. My plan was to buy often and have some stock for when I want to shoot. But truth be told, for intermediate cartridges, I was contemplating a semi-auto for no other reason than "I want it". I'll look around and see what's available in 7.62x39 (besides the SKS).

Within past few months, I acquired a single shot lever action Ithaca M-49 in 22 Magnum - my "perfect" racoon gun. Is a lot of fun to be had, popping away with that thing. I also have a BRNO No. 1 and various CZ 452 - hard to go wrong with them - they seem to just work fine - no issues at all for .22 Long Rifle.

Awesome! I'll check them!

For shotgunning, do not overlook a 20 gauge or a 28 gauge - I have both in over-under and a side-by-side 20 gauge "coach gun".

I'll check those gauges too! Thanks!

When you want to go with a "big rifle" - a 308 Win is NOT big - I used one for circa 20 years as my deer rifle and took my first elk with it - there is now a 338 Win Mag, a 9.3x62 and soon to be .416 of some sort - once I receive that barrel. Let alone the 458 Win Mag, which is still not huge in the world of cartridges.

I entertained the idea of getting something chambered in .338 Lapua, but that would be outrageously expensive. Especially because I won't be able to reload at the moment (lack of space), so a .308 Win seemed like a fair compromise that wouldn't break the bank.

By the way, I'm not dismissing any suggestions here. Those options from my first post are just the ones I am more familiar.

[Hmatt]

Very good advice in here.. What potashminer said about the .308 is correct I had a 30-06, sold it and got a .308. That was a mistake, but now the wife has a rifle haha. About a month ago I purchased a 9.3x57 as my “bigger” gun(don’t buy one of these unless you hand load , but you said youre a beginner so I’m betting you don’t) You may consider 30-06 or 300win instead of .308.. same projectile further reach.. also very available and relatively cheap.

[Suther]

If you're new, I'd get a 308 over a 30-06 or 300wm. 308 will easily cover any hunting in Ontario, and has no problems hitting targets at 600-800yds. 308 has the cheapest ammo of the 3 and the least recoil. Learning to shoot good is easier if you're not getting beat up by recoil.

If you're going to shoot 1000+ or hunt something like Bison or Grizzly then you might want to step up from 308, but the 308 is a great place to start. Plenty capable, but not too punishing.


As for 12ga, I'm a Mossberg fan. I prefer the location of the slide release on the Mossberg (behind the trigger guard vs infront of it for the Remington) and I also prefer tang safeties over cross bolt, that way I can operate it without issue from either shoulder.

As for a 22lr, I'm a fan of anything thats not a 10/22 lol, but I'm not a huge fan of a semi auto 22lr that doesn't have a last round hold open... Marlin 795 are Winchester Wildcat are the two I've been playing with most lately, they both have last round hold opens and both are pretty accurate. Actually, I would recommend a bolt action 22lr over a semi auto 22lr for your first 22. Hard to beat a bolt action 22lr for learning the fundamentals.

[Potashminer]

Very good advice in here.. What potashminer said about the .308 is correct I had a 30-06, sold it and got a .308. That was a mistake, but now the wife has a rifle haha. About a month ago I purchased a 9.3x57 as my “bigger” gun(don’t buy one of these unless you hand load , but you said youre a beginner so I’m betting you don’t) You may consider 30-06 or 300win instead of .308.. same projectile further reach.. also very available and relatively cheap.

My Dad had a 30-06 - he did not reload - factory ammo only - I believe that my hand loaded 308 Win with 165 grain Speer was fully equal to his factory 30-06 with 165 grain ammo - my elderly Shooting Chrony was showing circa 2800 fps with 165 grain from that 308 Win - loads are shown in Speer and Nosler manuals. I could not keep up with heavier 180 grain or 200 grain bullets, though. Especially for a new hunter, do not loose track it is the bullet that will take the game - not the head-stamp on the casing. I believe that 308 Win and 30-06 (and 300 Win Mag and 300 Weatherby) all throw the same bullets. After our son "absconded" with that 308 Win, I moved on to 7x57, and 6.5x55, and 243 Win - any of which I think are perfectly adequate hunting cartridges to several hundred or 300 meters range. It is my impression that 100 grain 243 might be a trifle on the light side for moose and elk - but many of those animals taken with that combination. I would have no reservations using one for mule deer or white tail though - in my family, and among friends, there has been about a dozen taken with my wife's 243 Win.

Perhaps as perspective - there is several boxes of Woodleigh 9.3 mm 320 grain Weldcore here for the 9.3x62 - I have not done a thing with them - except look at them. Is an entirely different thing for many - ideally one would want them circa 2,200 or 2,300 fps on impact - is not a high speed, long range thing at all - more like a fighting rifle, or a big hammer, for close range. I am not even sure whether 9.3 mm makes it into the Medium Bores - older british also had "big bore" which I think started north of 45 caliber - there seems to be several differences of opinion where lines are for small bore, medium bore and big bore. I tend to think 32 caliber and less is small bore; 33 to 44 caliber as medium bore and 45 caliber and larger as big bore - but I have read other, very different, definitions. Was likely a carry over from the days when bullet diameter was considered to do the work - velocity was not too much different?