Italian M14 update thread anything new as of 2011 now

[I <3 M14]

[QUOTE=If you are making a list John...... I'll take one , consider it a preorder :D ..... I'm after the lowest serial number you can put aside hehehehe
[/QUOTE]

x2 for me

It will be interesting to see how 'milspec' these rifles actually are...

[mikebaker1129]

If you want a pretty shooter right out of the box that is not USGI milspec but probably works just as well in most circumstances, wait for an Italian one.

What makes you say this ?
The Italians made MILSPEC garands and a whole bunch of the Garand parts are the exact same part as found on a M14 ,so what makes you think that the M14 clones will not be milspec ?
I have read reports of issues with some of the 7.62mm parts not being milspec on another forum . Issues have been found with their ejectors and firing pins not fitting USGI bolts and 1 gent was having some trouble with his trigger group . I wish 7.62 all the best in the world and I hope they get the bugs worked out on these parts because I like you welcome another vendor stepping up to the place and even try to tackle something like this . M14 parts manufacturing is something not for the faint of heart .I am glad to see someone even try to make an attemp to make these parts for us M14 /m305 enthusiest .
I have a couple of their TIN coated pistons ,they look great ,but I will have to give a full report after I fire them .

[Claven2]

What makes you say this ?
The Italians made MILSPEC garands and a whole bunch of the Garand parts are the exact same part as found on a M14 ,so what makes you think that the M14 clones will not be milspec

Maybe I'm wrong, BUT, I will tell you why I do not believe the Italian M14's will be milspec.

1) Only Beretta and Breda made M1 parts. I know for a fact that John is not buying them from Beretta as I talked to their Canadian rep last week and he told me flat-out Beretta was not the maker. Breda no longer exists as a gunmaker.

2) Milspec means much more than copying a drawing. Making milspec guns on a commercial scale (say, under 10,000 units) is HUGELY expensive. Prohibitively so. This is because in order to achineve US Government milspec, you have a LOT of hoops to jump through. Some of those include:

a) All base material has to be procured with a mill cert from the steel mill guaranteeing the metal composition within very tight parameters. Then you have to randomly sample the billets prior to forging to make sure the mill cert matches the material. This is expensive.
b) At each manufacturing step of each parts lot, you have to do random destructive testing. If you have a failure, you have to scrap THE WHOLE BATCH - not just the one failed part. Again, hugely expensive.
c) Each step of manufacture has to be documented with a Statement of Quality Requirements (Milspec SOQR) and Objective Quality Evidence (OQE) has to be produced for each parts batch, including NDT of every part, random dimensional inspections, radiography, etc. This is all manually done by people, not CNC machines, and is VERY expensive.
d) To be milspec, the parts ALL (individually) have to be gauged for interchangeability. If some parts don't interchange, that whole manufacturing run has to be SCRAPPED. Again, cost-prohibitive.

Basically, I don't think Marstar could profitably sell true milspec guns in Canada. I do not believe it would be possible without government-size contracts to produce milspec parts in Italy at a price point John could sell them for in Canada, especially not when Chinese M14's that are pretty decent are selling for under $500.

Do I think most or maybe even all these Italian guns will have parts interchangeability with a real M14? Yes, probably they will. Do I think they will be true milspec? Not on your life. No modern gunmaker makes milspec parts without a government contract. Period. They do not sentence entire parts runs due to isolated failues - it's too expensive. They do not NDT every part. Too expensive.

Follow my logic?

[KiLLGiLL]

Any change of status on these rifles?

Any info would be great.

[#1bcshooter]

UPDATE;
The Italian M-14s will have wlanut stocks....
We have a few un-expected bumps in the road....
Will keep all of you posted....
John

Almost 4 months have gone by .
Did those bumps in the road turn into a wash out ?

[Edward Teach]

Almost 4 months have gone by .
Did those bumps in the road turn into a wash out ?

I guess it really was too much, even for him...

What about the virgins you promised with each one?

EDWARD TEACH;
This has become a major stumbling block in our marketing plans....

I did not realize that these were all but extinct.... The search goes on.

John

[CBMS]

So is this a nogo for the milspec European M1a?

[G.Mitchell]

I am also interested in more details.

If this is a short barrel version, 18.5" obviously, I am very interested...

[davemccarthy707]

Maybe I'm wrong, BUT, I will tell you why I do not believe the Italian M14's will be milspec.

1) Only Beretta and Breda made M1 parts. I know for a fact that John is not buying them from Beretta as I talked to their Canadian rep last week and he told me flat-out Beretta was not the maker. Breda no longer exists as a gunmaker.

2) Milspec means much more than copying a drawing. Making milspec guns on a commercial scale (say, under 10,000 units) is HUGELY expensive. Prohibitively so. This is because in order to achineve US Government milspec, you have a LOT of hoops to jump through. Some of those include:

a) All base material has to be procured with a mill cert from the steel mill guaranteeing the metal composition within very tight parameters. Then you have to randomly sample the billets prior to forging to make sure the mill cert matches the material. This is expensive.
b) At each manufacturing step of each parts lot, you have to do random destructive testing. If you have a failure, you have to scrap THE WHOLE BATCH - not just the one failed part. Again, hugely expensive.
c) Each step of manufacture has to be documented with a Statement of Quality Requirements (Milspec SOQR) and Objective Quality Evidence (OQE) has to be produced for each parts batch, including NDT of every part, random dimensional inspections, radiography, etc. This is all manually done by people, not CNC machines, and is VERY expensive.
d) To be milspec, the parts ALL (individually) have to be gauged for interchangeability. If some parts don't interchange, that whole manufacturing run has to be SCRAPPED. Again, cost-prohibitive.

Basically, I don't think Marstar could profitably sell true milspec guns in Canada. I do not believe it would be possible without government-size contracts to produce milspec parts in Italy at a price point John could sell them for in Canada, especially not when Chinese M14's that are pretty decent are selling for under $500.

Do I think most or maybe even all these Italian guns will have parts interchangeability with a real M14? Yes, probably they will. Do I think they will be true milspec? Not on your life. No modern gunmaker makes milspec parts without a government contract. Period. They do not sentence entire parts runs due to isolated failues - it's too expensive. They do not NDT every part. Too expensive.

Follow my logic?

Are you sure your not confusing original milspec certification with production batching?

-Dave

[johnone]

Regarding the Italian M-14....
YES it is an ongoing project, as are several others....

I am now very hesitant to give any further details such as delivery etc....
John