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Thread: CSA M4 non-restricted VZ-58

  1. #1
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    CSA M4 non-restricted VZ-58

    Are the chamber's in these rifles .223 rem spec. or 5.56x45mm NATO spec. anyway for you guys to confirm this ?

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    Newbie 86IltisAmb's Avatar
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    .223 and 5.56 are the EXACT same. Just as .308 and 7.62. Any AMMO tech in the military can confirm this.

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    Newbie 86IltisAmb's Avatar
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    I should add. The ONLY difference between military ammo and civi ammo is the casing and primers. For the mil ammo they are "heavy duty", they are this way because ammo just gets thrown around and also used in machine guns.

    Having said that the outside dimensions are the exact same. Just a thicker base and stronger primer.

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    CGN Ultra frequent flyer Canuck223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 86IltisAmb View Post
    I should add. The ONLY difference between military ammo and civi ammo is the casing and primers. For the mil ammo they are "heavy duty", they are this way because ammo just gets thrown around and also used in machine guns.

    Having said that the outside dimensions are the exact same. Just a thicker base and stronger primer.
    That's not entirely true.

    For the most part, you are right, but there are a few differences that can mean big problems in some situations.

    The .223Rem and the 5.56 chambers differ in the neck diameter and the throat. The .223 Rem is tighter in the neck, and the rifling has less of the throat. (ie, the area of rifling relieved to allow the bullet to transition is less.)

    The maximum operating pressure of the 5.56 is higher.

    In the worst possible scenario, a max diameter and max pressure 5.56 cartridge fired in a minimum spec .223 Rem chamber could produce pressures that exceed proof loads.

    Most commercial .223 Rem chambers are more generous. The danger is more theoretical then anything else.

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    .223 rem vs. 5.56x45mm NATO

    I heard that it was a no no to shoot 5.56 in a .223 chamber, supposedly higher pressures in the 5.56 or something along those lines, but I could be wrong any way, I was mostly interested on what is the markings on the barrels, are they marked .223 rem or 5.56x45mm that's really it.

  6. #6
    CGN Regular donkSTRIKER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 86IltisAmb View Post
    .223 and 5.56 are the EXACT same. Just as .308 and 7.62. Any AMMO tech in the military can confirm this.
    Incorrect.

    While the 5.56mm NATO and .223 Remington cartridges and chamberings are very similar, they are not identical.

    The 5.56mm NATO chambering, known as a NATO or mil-spec chamber, has a longer leade, which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the rifling engages the bullet. The .223 Remington chambering, known as SAAMI chamber, is allowed to have a shorter leade, and is only required to be proof tested to the lower SAAMI chamber pressure. To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber (Bill Wylde)[8] or the ArmaLite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56mm NATO and .223 Remington equally well. The dimensions and leade of the .223 Remington minimum C.I.P. chamber also differ from the 5.56mm NATO chamber specification.

    Using commercial .223 Remington cartridges in a 5.56mm NATO chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223 Remington chambered gun due to the longer leade.[9] Using 5.56mm NATO mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223 Remington chambered rifle can lead to excessive wear and stress on the rifle and even be unsafe, and the SAAMI recommends against the practice.[10][11] Some commercial rifles marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56mm NATO, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14, but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it, and signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or gas staining of the primers) should be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56mm NATO ammunition.
    source

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    Quote Originally Posted by 86IltisAmb View Post
    .223 and 5.56 are the EXACT same. Just as .308 and 7.62. Any AMMO tech in the military can confirm this.
    Wow, you couldn't be further from the truth. Perhaps do a little research before offering advice that could potentially be dangerous to a shooter and harmful to a firearm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saskcop View Post
    Wow, you couldn't be further from the truth. Perhaps do a little research before offering advice that could potentially be dangerous to a shooter and harmful to a firearm.
    Ya man, you can use a 5.56 in a .223 but not vice versa, mind you I have never seen 5.56 in Canada ever.

    7.62 is a diameter, there are 3 main forms of 7.62: the 7.62x39 SKS and AK47 to name a few. the 7.62x51 (very similar to .308) M-14 PKM machine gun (some variants) and 7.62x54 mosin-nagant
    those are just common examples of guns traditionally chambered for that cartridge
    7.62 is a very broad span of a specific measurement that stays consistent. 7.62 is for sure not all the same

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    Thread Jacking.....

    Do these rifles have the rails for a side mount installed? If not, are they drilled for said side rail??
    Quotation is a serviceable substitute for wit.

    ~Oscar Wilde~

  10. #10
    CGN frequent flyer Sadosubliminal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quackbang View Post
    Ya man, you can use a 5.56 in a .223 but not vice versa, mind you I have never seen 5.56 in Canada ever.
    No. Doesn't jive with other sources. Please re-read:

    Quote Originally Posted by donkSTRIKER View Post
    Using commercial .223 Remington cartridges in a 5.56mm NATO chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223 Remington chambered gun due to the longer leade.[9] Using 5.56mm NATO mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223 Remington chambered rifle can lead to excessive wear and stress on the rifle and even be unsafe, and the SAAMI recommends against the practice.[10][11] Some commercial rifles marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56mm NATO, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14, but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it, and signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or gas staining of the primers) should be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56mm NATO ammunition.
    And apply that to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Canuck223 View Post
    The .223Rem and the 5.56 chambers differ in the neck diameter and the throat. The .223 Rem is tighter in the neck, and the rifling has less of the throat. (ie, the area of rifling relieved to allow the bullet to transition is less.)

    The maximum operating pressure of the 5.56 is higher.

    In the worst possible scenario, a max diameter and max pressure 5.56 cartridge fired in a minimum spec .223 Rem chamber could produce pressures that exceed proof loads.
    You end up with this:

    .223 cartridge in a 5.56 rifle: loosey goosey
    5.56 cartridge in .223 rifle: potential for danger
    You like Loud, Ugly Metal? We do it up right: http://www.deadairrepublic.com

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