“T” and “D” come with me to the range. (Several photos)

#4mk1(T)

#4mk1(T)

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“T” and “D” come with me to the range. (Several photos)

It’s been a long time since I could make it up to the range for any kind of shooting at all. Work was slow so my boss let me cut out early and on my way home it occurred to me this would be an outstanding day for a bit milsurp fun! I hadn’t had an opportunity to shoot the M1D I acquired in the spring yet and figured a an M1D/No4.Mk1(T) shoot off might be in order.
For the test I used Federal American Eagle and South Korean ball in the M1 and some DA 1944 ball in the No4T.
The No4T has never liked surplus ball but does has a love on for 174gr SMK’s backed by IMR 4064 and will produce consistent groups just above the 1.5in zone. Never having shot the M1D I had no idea what it would like so I figured an all ball comparison was in order.
To cut a fairly long story short after sighting in both rifles produced nice consistent groups in the 3in area at 100yds. The shoot off then broke down to just plane having fun! I sighted in for 200yds and started hitting an 8in. round gong with every shot.
So my conclusion: the No4(T) is defiantly a better sniper rifle. The scope has better optics, more power, better controls and is mounted in a better way. I suspect both will have about the same accuracy capability with issue ammo. The one obvious advantage of the M1D is always the rapid follow-up shot but the brass and enblock being thrown about may not be much of an advantage to a sniper trying to conceal his position (though the sniper having to manipulate the bolt of the No.4 may betray him as well).
Anyway here’s a few photo’s. Hope you enjoy!

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Wow, those are two gorgeous rifles! I almost bought an M1D from Ellwood Epps a few months back, but realized it would have cost me my entire summer jobs worth of money. It was probably worth it and I should have gone for it.
 
cote_b said:
Wow, those are two gorgeous rifles! I almost bought an M1D from Ellwood Epps a few months back, but realized it would have cost me my entire summer jobs worth of money. It was probably worth it and I should have gone for it.
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No it wouldn't be worth anything except as an investment. Having shot an M1D, I can attest to their horrible stock ergonomics and scope alignment challenges. And, there is no way of authenticating a US Garand sniper rifle. They are all made up from parts kits, without ordnance depot control. Now, there is a known quantity of No.4T rifles (about 29,000), and they ain't making any more of them.
 
Nice 'pair' ya got there, 303.
You and Mike Venturino should get together. He seems to have
changed somewhat to military rifles from BPCR. I haven't had a chance to talk to him in awhile. He also seems to be into full auto now.
Anyway, thanks for the comparison,

LeRoy
 
Yup, today was a good day for a M1C Garand sniper range test too.After a lot of searching I finally got the proper receiver bracket and a Griffin & Howe mount for my M1C. I had some difficulty in getting the rings to secure to the base with the 2 screws which pass thru the base from the bottom,and found that I needed to insert a .004 piece of shimstock between the rings and the base to draw them up tight. After getting a 25 yd zero I moved to the 100 yd bench where I fired seven 3 shot groups with using three of my proven Garand handloads.Groups ranged from .5" to 3.1 " with an overall average of 1.41". I was pleased that the scope rings remained secure and that the vintage Lyman Alaskan scope allowed positive adjustment and retained it's zero as well. This level of accuracy is consistent with what I have experienced with my M1D over the past 10 yrs. As Sten says,the sniper Garands are not at all comfortable to shoot due to their offset scope,but it is satisfying to find a good level of accuracy with what was state of the art nearly 65 yrs ago.With the low power 21/2x scope you really don't gain that much over the conventional iron sights,but the added target resolution is certainly helpful. For comparison, I also fired seven 3 shot groups using the standard aperture sight from an Italian Tipo 2 7.62mm Garand that I built on a Breda receiver. Group sizes with this rifle ranged from .75" to 3" with an overall average of 1.5"-just about the same as the M1C.
On the topic of authentic Garand sniper rifles,the M1D is especially difficult to establish as bona-fide military issue, as many were assembled in civilian hands using surplus M1D components. The US Army assembled these on any make and vintage receiver,so You cannot pin them down to make or serial number range.The best way of establishing military provenance is with US DCM or CMP documentation. There are a number of legitimate military M1Ds in circulation in Canada by reason of the imports from Denmark 10 plus yrs ago.In addition to the proper M1D barrel,these rifles will show the rifles serial # stamped on the stock (mine is on the top edge of the stock below the op rod handle,contrary to the normal Danish practice of stamping the serial number on the botton of the buttstock)and will have the correct M84 scope marked with the Danish FKF/Crown/inventory number. The M1C sniper rifles were built by Springfield Armory as a production item and will bear serial numbers in the 3 M range. Only 7971 M1Cs were produced and the serial numbers can be verified as legitimate by the Garand Collectors Association with a high level of confidence.
In addition to the Garand snipers,the M1903A4 Springfield is also highly collectable and can be an excellent shooter with the eternal .30-06.In my opinion these are the equal of the No4 T,their only shortcoming being their somewhat fragile Weaver scope. There were only 28,000 of these produced and they are beyond fakery due to their unique receiver markings.
 
Thanks for all the great feedback! It is truly a pleasure to be the custodian of these two rifles. I don’t shoot these to often but don’t want them to just sit in the safe ether.
Gibbs505 said:
Now the big question! How did they shoot?????
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With the ammo I took with me to the range I’d call them both 2.5 to 3in shooters. None of the rounds I used are noted for there accuracy though and the No4T defiantly likes the one hand load I’ve worked up for it. I suspect the M1D will respond when I brew something up for it as well.
purple said:
On the topic of authentic Garand sniper rifles,the M1D is especially difficult to establish as bona-fide military issue, as many were assembled in civilian hands using surplus M1D components. The US Army assembled these on any make and vintage receiver,so You cannot pin them down to make or serial number range.The best way of establishing military provenance is with US DCM or CMP documentation. There are a number of legitimate military M1Ds in circulation in Canada by reason of the imports from Denmark 10 plus yrs ago.In addition to the proper M1D barrel,these rifles will show the rifles serial # stamped on the stock (mine is on the top edge of the stock below the op rod handle,contrary to the normal Danish practice of stamping the serial number on the botton of the buttstock)and will have the correct M84 scope marked with the Danish FKF/Crown/inventory number. The M1C sniper rifles were built by Springfield Armory as a production item and will bear serial numbers in the 3 M range. Only 7971 M1Cs were produced and the serial numbers can be verified as legitimate by the Garand Collectors Association with a high level of confidence.
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OK now my 2 cents regarding M1D authenticity (WARNING! internet opinion! Read with caution!)
This rifles history in known in Canada since it’s import by Lever Arms in the late 70’s or early 80’s. I am trying to ascertain exactly which country it came from but it is believed it originated in Greece. A number of these rifles were brought in to Canada as at the time it was illegal to re-import surplus US arms back into the US. It was on a rack with several others all complete with all there kit less there scopes, the scope mount and Hart flash hider hanging from a wire on the front sling swivel. A friend who also bought his rifle at this time remembers my rife on the rack because of it’s unusual low (late 1940, early gas port) serial number. I am the 4th Canadian owner of the rifle the first being Lever Arms then the original owner, the dealer I bought it from and then myself. The original owner apparently bought the rifle and put it away and didn’t shoot it. When I got it I found a scope for it in Greece and the T-37 flash hider in the EE. The only other non-original item in the photo is the thong used on the K-Line as the original had rotted away. When I received the rifle it still had a lot of it’s original White LUBRIPLATE rifle grease dried into the lube points. My M1D does have the correct barrel drawing number (D7312555) on the top under the hand guard and is correctly dated S-A-5-51. It also has an SA-K inspection stamp on the stock under the cheek piece and the barrel inspection stamp is also “K”. Everything else is right out of the book as for M1D rifles.
Is it original I’ll never know for sure but I believe it is and I paid less for the rifle than the sum of it’s parts.
 
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It is a real challenge to track the provenance of surplus small arms,and I suppose this is why the US went to the system of importer stampings back in the 1980s.For example,I bought a number of nice P08 Lugers from Lever Arms back in the 1985/86 timeframe and could tell from the proof marks and distinctive grips that they were E. Geman VOPO re-works.I called Lever to confirm this and they indicated that the terms of their purchase forbade disclosure of this info.Machs nix,because I knew anyway.Several yrs ago I got my 03A4 Springfield from a well known Canadian vendor who indicated that it had been imported from Chile.Who knows,because the largesse of US military assistance has scattered so much in so many places,then recipient countries(even though restricted by the US) will ship small arms to other locations.In this case I bought the rifle,not the story,as it was an excellent piece and 100% authentic.Garands came into Canada from many places at many times over the yrs,so the possibilities are almost endless. 30+ yrs ago I bought a stone-mint, arsenal fresh Letterkenny re-build from a vendor in Montreal still in the Interarms box. 20 yrs ago,while serving a long tour in the Middle East,I saw Israeli reserve troopies carrying unused looking M14s and thought it would be nice to have one.And guess what,very nice ex-IDF M14s showed up in Lever's Gunrunner ads at about the same time.I had a MO back to Canada in a heartbeat with delivery to my brother-in-law so that I did'nt miss out.
From what you say,your M1D has a sound ring of authenticity to it.The barrel checks,as does the stock cartouche, and you can track it back to Levers,who were not in the business of building things up for the collectors market. Maybe you have seen the article, "How to shade your bet when buying an M1D" at www.jouster.com-Table of Contents.There is also another write-up on all 3 of the Garand sniper variants.The Bruce Canfield books are very useful and scholarly references on both the Garand and 03 Springfield sniper rifles.
Handloads bring out the best in the Garand and I would encourage you to try them.Provided the barrel is sound,and the fit of parts are tight or loose where they should be,I expect 2MOA with handloads from a Garand in issue condition.MILSURP .30-06 is pretty tough to find, and a lot of it was pull apart MG ammo with an accuracy potential of 2-2.5MOA at best.A couple of exceptions on this.The Danish surplus M2 ball is very good. Funnily enough,some of the Korean PS M2 ball are also very accurate,although there are warnings about certain lot numbers experiencing splitting along the length of the case.Several yrs ago I tuned up a friend's CMP Garand with a VAR barrel while wintering in Arizona, and then range tested it with some of the Korean ball with amazing results.
 
Thanks for your post and links purple!
I will likely never know 100% for sure if it is real but I bought the rifle and not the story as you state anyway. I have been corresponding with another CGN member and fellow M1D owner since this post regarding M1D authenticity and shared the following opinion on the subject as well:
I think we in Canada have a better chance of getting an original than in the US as we were never encumbered by import restrictions on US arms. Additionally up until recently there wasn’t the knowledge base or ready parts availability as in the US to build a fake. I’m sure fakes were/are built here in Canada but not to the degree they were in the US.

Also up until the import of the Danish M1’s into Canada the cost of a basic M1 was such that buying one, getting all the parts and having the work done to convert it to an M1D would often cost more than an original.
(WARNING---The preceding was yet more Internet opinion and should be read with caution! This opinion not valid if combined with any other opinions. Your opinion may vary!)
At the very least it has all original parts and is a blast to shoot!
I have Bruce Canfield’s books on both the M1 Garand/Carbine and the Springfield 1903. Both great references indeed.
 
Thanks for the posts, I have always wondered how the M1 C & D's were marked and as a result have stayed away from them not wanting to get burned. With the #4 Mk 1(T), it is harder to get taken. My (T) has matching numbers, which makes it pretty obvious that it is an original.
 
With the ammo I took with me to the range I’d call them both 2.5 to 3in shooters. None of the rounds I used are noted for there accuracy though and the No4T defiantly likes the one hand load I’ve worked up for it. I suspect the M1D will respond when I brew something up for it as well.
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So both would do their job, within their limits!!
 
Gibbs505 said:
So both would do their job, within their limits!!
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Defiantly! I don’t think I would want to be on the receiving end of ether rifle if used by trained hands. Even the ergonomics of the m1D aren’t all that bad after firing a few rounds (other than the length of pull being a tad short for a 6ft tall shooter). It doesn’t actually take all that much to get used to.
Another advantage to the No4(T) however is the post shot clean. The Lee Enfield is WAY easer to clean after shooting!
 
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