1 mile shot with M1903A4 Springfield sniper variant with M84 scope - .30-06

[GunGuy34]

Im watching Saving Private Ryan. One of my favorite movies. However, just now the sniper guy said if he was within one mile of Adolf Hitler he could end the war with one shot. Would such a shot be possible with the rifle he is using? 1 Mile is 1760 yards, thats a hard shot with todays rifles.


Is this hollywood bull####. I dont know much about WW2 rifles.


1 mile shot with M1903A4 Springfield sniper variant with M84 scope - .30-06

 

[Gobc]

I don't know if they had match or sniper ammunition. I also don't know what the barrel quality of a sniper M1903 back in WW2 was like compare to todays match barrel standards. I'm inclined to think that with basic WW2 GI gear, I don't think it would be possible. If he's using standard 30cal ammo, how accurate could his rifle be? I would say 1 moa at best. At 1760 yards, that's an 18.42" circle. Hitting that would be a really good shot, almost a fluke. I don't know how much power the round would have after that flight as well. If he did hit, it would be like getting hit with a pistol. Still possibly deadly. I would say with the gear they had back then, 1 mile would be very very unlikely.

 

[GunGuy34]

1760 would be a good shot with todays 338 lapua or 50 bmg. 30 06 i figured 1000 yards max.

 

[dante_mags]

You probably couldn't even see someone with those old scopes at a half a mile.

 

[45ACPKING]

Of course it possible, it's in a Tom Hanks movie, what are ya thinkin LOL

 

[Galt]

Didnt they issue a different round in WW2 for the 1903 than they did for the Garand?

 

[Tomochan]

Well, while being doubtful I wouldn't want to stand 1760 yards away from a trained marksman with a 1903 who was intent on sending me to the hereafter.

 

[redryder]

Well, while being doubtful I wouldn't want to stand 1760 yards away from a trained marksman with a 1903 who was intent on sending me to the hereafter.

Amen!

 

[Hitzy]

Hathcock used a 30'06 in Vietnam, but I don't know what his longest hit was....I know at one point he mounted a scope on a 50 cal Browning and was getting some longer range tags...lol

 

[purple]

SPR is a good flick, but a lot of it is pure Hollywood. The keen eye will recall that the "sniper" character was using 2 different scopes on his rifle at different times in the movie. One of them is a Lyman Alaskan which appears in the photo in post #1. The other is unknown.

I own and shoot a real M1903A4 which I've had for some years. The bore is very lightly used and remains in excellent condition. Remington built them with both 2 and 4 groove barrels which were air gauged for tolerances. Mine is a 2 groove. The rifle will shoot consistent 1.5 MOA groups @ 100 yds using quality handloads with 155 or 168gr match bullets.

The standard scope for the M1903A4 was a standard Weaver 330 sporting scope of 2.5x and with a .75 inch diameter tube. The M84 scope was used on some rifles which remained in service into the 1950s. The Weaver 330 is a very flimsy scope and is highly subject to parallax. It would have been great on a rabbit gun, but really wasn't robust enough for a fighting rifle, even a carefully babied sniper rifle. I have a Weaver M73B1, which is a militarized Weaver 330, but use a Lyman Alaskan on my rifle. The Alaskan is a much better scope and was originally specified for the M1903A4, but Lyman was unable to supply them in the quantities required, so the Weaver became the second best choice. The Alaskan has a 7/8 inch tube and is far superior to the Weaver, but it is still only 2.5x. The post and crosshair reticle subtends approx. 4 inches @ 100 yds, so you can imagine how much real estate it would obscure @ 1 mile.

Most military .30-06 ammo in WW2 was the M2 ball round with a 150-152gr flat base bullet which does not hold up well over a long distance. The 168gr AP bullet was ballistically superior and a lot of this ammo was also used. Long range target shooters know that a 168gr bullet pretty much runs out of gas before 1000 yds. Add this to a very poor sighting system shooting over an unknown distance and it boils down to a lot of Kentucky windage and elevation estimation and a lot of Hail Marys. Is a .30-06 still lethal at a mile;could be, but first you need to hit the target.

Short answer. Yes, it is Hollywood BS.

 

[Ganderite]

It would shoot a mile. The bullet has to hit something. So yes, it is possible.

Is it probable, with 1 shot? Nope.

 

[Tomochan]

Good detailed answer purple. Having said that wasn't there a certain Union General in the US Civil War named John Sedgwick whose famous last words were " they couldn't hit an elephant at that ra............"

 

[J996]

Hathcock used a 30'06 in Vietnam, but I don't know what his longest hit was....I know at one point he mounted a scope on a 50 cal Browning and was getting some longer range tags...lol

I have the book Marine Sniper (somewhere) if I recall his longest shot with a .30 was 1200 yards. That was a Win m70 30-06 with Unertl scope (which was an 8x power?? I think anyways).

Playing with M2's in single shot by snipers started in Korea. They would heavily sandbag the tripod and jerry rig a scope. In 1967 Hathcock set the record with this method by mounting his Unertl on an M2. It was 2500 yards.

 

[Mac308]

I don't know about different .30-06 rounds for M1's vs. M1903's, sounds like a logistical nightmare....

Hathcock usually kept his M-70 zeroed at 700 yards. He won the Wimbledon Cup at 1000 yards, but actual combat hit of 1200 for his longest .30-06 shot sounds about right, but I would have to look it up.

 

[Melnibonean]

Good detailed answer purple. Having said that wasn't there a certain Union General in the US Civil War named John Sedgwick whose famous last words were " they couldn't hit an elephant at that ra............"

Yup. 1,000 yrds (900m), but it was a lucky shot.

Sedgwick and his men were sent to probe the skirmish lines on the left flank of the Confederate army at the battle of Spotsylvania Court House when he and his men came under indirect sharpshooter fire. While his men kept ducking and weaving to avoid the shots, Sedgwick, in order to rally them, strode around in the open. His last sentence was:

"What? Men dodging this way for single bullets? What will you do when they open fire along the whole line?" Although ashamed, his men continued to flinch and he said, "Why are you dodging like this? They couldn't hit an elephant at this........(distance)."

The round entered under his left eye and he died instantly. He was the highest ranking Union officer to fall during the Civil War. Grant, upon hearing the news, couldn't believe it. "Is he really dead?" was his reaction. Sedgwick had survived getting shot 3 times (wrist, shoulder, leg) with rounds that were pulverizing bone and causing an atrocious rate of amputations on both sides, and came back to active duty. He even survived being enveloped by Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson in action that saw Sedgwick lose 1/2 his Division.

Considering the Confederates were shooting .44-.50 caliber mini balls at that distance, it was more fluke than anything else.

 

[Harry Callahan]

The longest confirm kill by Carlos Hathcock with his M70 is 1450 yards, he used a Unertl 8x scope. Remember that the 30-06 even when loaded with a 208gr slug will be subsonic at around 1450y out of a 26" barrel. Saw multiple post on long range shooting forums stating that it's possible to hit a 12" gong at 1740y with a rolled 208gr Amax.

Was it possible in June, 1944 with a M1903-A4 (Weaver 2.5x), probably but not on the first shot. The M1903-A1 Unetrl was adopted by the USMC (they also used standard A4's) with the Unertl 8x was way better for sniping at longer ranges (tested with M72 match ammo, it shot some 3.5" groups @ 600 yards witch translate to .58 MOA). With plain M2 ball ammo, about the only ammo available back then, groups were 7.5" @ 600y or 1.25 MOA, still pretty good in my book.

 

[Mauser GDog]

Short answer. Yes, it is Hollywood BS.

To be fair to one of my favorite movies of all time let's consider it more of a glimpse into the sniper's character illustrating his confidence as a marksman, and a example of trash talking soldiers exchange in one anothers company.
(Fine, it's also part hollywood BS!)

 

[jakester]

I plan to go to the Edson Range sometime this year with my M1D, so I'll get to see first hand what a target looks like at 1 mile distance through an M84 scope. As far as shooting it at that distance, the M84's adjustment tops out at 900 yards, so hitting a target at 1 mile with that scope would require a great deal of luck or divine intervention.

Hathcock used Lake City 172gr match ammunition in his Win. M70. He won the Wimbeldon Cup shooting a Win. M70 in 300 Win Mag if my recollection is sound. The Unertl scope was popular because its externally adjustable mount system allowed a greater than normal amount of elevation adjustment.

 

[hometownhero]

Carlos

I do believe there was a reproduction of this rifle and scope available a few years ago.

 

[Still alive]

I'm just starting into Long Range shooting with a .308. Really enjoying this thread. I love snipers tales from all eras, fluke or skill!
Please keep this going. 30-06, .308, .338...heck! What's the longest kill with a .22LR? That should be interesting. I know I can look it up but want to bump this!