1000 yard F Class Shooter- .260 or 6.5 x 284 ?

Hungry

Hungry

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For 1000 yard shooting many folks here in Ontario are moving to the 6.5 family.

I'm a standard cartridge and not so custom rifle kinda target shooter... :p Hey at least my ORA buddies tell me that I can get away with converting using one of my .473" head'ed .308 rifles sitting in the cabinet.

For our F Class shoots at 700, 800 , 900 and 1000 yards, why must I have to burn up a barrel and lots of powder for a 6.5 x 284 ?

Why can't I just shoot a .260 Rem and push it out to similar velocities ?

Pressure ?

Any insight on this new 6.5 development would be welcomed. Sooner or later I'm gonna have to give up my .308's since I'm kinda anal. :rolleyes:

Cheers,
Barney
 
I've been shooting a 260 before anyone was calling it that, almost 5 years now (man times flies).

I'm using a Smith 26" barrel on a 700 action. I did quite a bit of load work when I first got it, and ended up using the first load I ever did. 140 Amax with 41.5 H4350. Chronoed at 2770. My chamber is cut at .290, so I have to turn the necks.

I don't know what you are getting for speed out of the 284 case, but this load seems to tighten after 300m. Not that the 100 is bad, just that it excells further out. Our F class matches go out to 900. I just haven't been to enough of them, and not enough sniper matches either.

You can use your 308 brass also and you are good to go.

Can't say enough good stuff about it.
 
There are many who are finding the 6.5-284 too much of a good thing. Versions now being used competitively include 260, 260AI, 6.5X55 reg and AI versions. The 6.5 WSSM is also being campaigned but I do not know how it has done (I am sure it is doing as well as any other).

I can also offer the 6.5 Mystic (same case capacity as the WSSM) which is based on the 308 case. Whenever these renos get done, I will finish my second 6.5 Mystic and confirm performance.

I expect 2850 to 2950fps from the 30" Gaillard using 46 to 48gr of H4831SC. That is almost 10gr less powder then the 6.5-284 which can only lead to better throat life. Yes, I am running BR pressures.

Now since you are thinking change, you might want to have a look at what is happening in the 6mm. New bullets pushing 115/120gr are making this cal a real challenger in the 1000yd game.

6BR and improved versions are already kicking butt in 300m and 600m classes. Some have used then very competitively at 1000yds but they will drift more. Larger cases and higher velocities help but the bullets in the 105/107gr class are not as slippery as the 140gr class 6.5's.

The heavier 6mm bullets are getting awfully close.

Now you are burning less then 40gr to push a 115gr bullet to 2900/3000fps with a BC at or exceeding 0.6. For a light rifle, makes you think.

In an open F class 22lbs rig, the 6, 6.5, 7mm all work well. Just pick the one you can afford/find components to shoot. Since you shoot a 308, any of these will blow your mind with the reduced wind drift.

Unless you run a 308 also at BR pressures and launch a 155gr Scenar at or close to 3000fps. Scary stuff...

Jerry
 
260AI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
B. see you at Milcun's soon.Chat then.
G
 
Definately the 260. It is easy to tune great barrel life. I will going back to the 260 rouge Its a 260 with a 37 deg shoulder, Best F-class rig I ever had.
Got 3500 rounds of acurarate life out a krieger barrel. Only down turn is the wasted 100 or so bullets to fire form.
 
Cream of wheat fireforming. No bullet and might just lap that throat in the process.

Besides keeping a bullet supersonic at distance, I also want as much velocity without excessive recoil or wear, as possible to help with wind drift.

Yes, 100 or 150fps only reduces your wind drift 4 to 8 inches but in comp with switching conditions, that is a scoring ring. That matters!!!!

I want a min of 2800 but prefer up to 3000fps.

Besides, if you want your gear in top form, you need to change/set back barrels before they are worn.

Otherwise, just use factory barrels and say that you are 800rds into a match barrel and pocket the funds.

Hungry, the Savage model I am thinking of is the 112BVSS. Around $760 retail with a 26" heavy fluted SS barrel, Accutrigger (not bad and can be lightened), a very nice shaped stock, should already be pillar bedded. So just reduce that trigger, 'glass' bed the action, work up loads using Lee collet sizing dies and any seating die that gives you very little runout.

I have been shooting Re25 over Fed 215M in Rem brass in a Krieger barreled Stevens. Maybe a fluke but I did send 3 162gr moly Amax into 2 5/8" group at 1000m at a fun shoot last year. Sighters were around 4".

I would say it has potential...

Jerry
 
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Hey Hungry I new some one out there had to have asked this question before. This is what I found.


1000 yard rifle is a 6.5-08. 26" barrel with H4350 can move a 142 grain Sierra Matchking close to 2800fps. This is a fine 1000 yard round, however the 6.5-284 will launch the same bullet around 200 fps faster. Not enough to run out and buy a 6.5-284 if you already have a 260 Remington (6.5-08), but it is a significant difference in my opinion.

You should get longer barrel life with the .260 over the 6.5-284 in most cases.

The big reason for getting away from the 260 is brass. For a casual shooter, the 260 works fine but for competition use the brass is just too much of a problem to get right. The easiest way to get good stuff seems to be to buy Lapua .243 brass and run it thru a neck expander. I tried sorting and utilizing Remington brass and it is just too much trouble to get good stuff. For somebody who shoots open sights and shoots around 90%, it is probably usable, but for F-class where 75% of the shots need to end up in the X-ring and anything below a 10 can lose the match the 260 Remington brass just isn't up to par.
The Swede and the 6.5-284 both have Lapua brass available, so it really comes down to preference. Both have the same case length but the Lapua Swede brass has a larger rim diameter. My Swede rifle was originally a Remington 243 Varmint rifle. The Swede brass is a bit of a tight fit in the bolt face but works as long as I am willing to pick out the empties by hand.
Enter the 6.5-284, great brass, correct bolt face, works like a charm. Don't get too worried about burning up barrels in a hurry. Simply load the round down a bit and barrel life goes way up. You don't have to rocket along at 3000 fps every time you pull the trigger but it is available when you want to try it out.

would go with the 6.5 x 284. It's a tried and true 1000 yd cartridge, and premium factory brass is available from Lapua and Norma (or you can neck down Winchester 284 brass if you want) and reloading dies are readily available.

As to barrel life, I think you'll be pushing a 260 Rem to flat out max loadings and not get close to the 6.5 x 284 performance (especially in the wind). When you push the 260 Rem that hard, your barrel will go a lot faster than you might think anyway. Same with the 6XC, start pushing Sierra 107's or the Tubb 115's up in the 2950 to 3000 fps, and your barrel will erode quickly too.

There's no short cut here, if you go for barrel life, you are going to compromise the performance of the rifle, and if your like most of us, a day at 1000 yd range is a special day that does not happen regularly, so treat yourself and go with the best you can.

Two people you might want to talk to are Terry Cross of KMW (he shoots the 139 scenars) or Greg Langlieus both of them have extensive experience with this round.

Just for fun have you looked at the 243 with the new 6mm bullets in 107, 115 and soon the 120 it may be an interesting choice.
 
I would look long and hard a 6mm offering. The heavier bullets are equaling the BC performance of the 6.5 and would have less recoil and less powder burned. Wait for the 6.5x47 Lapua and neck it down to 6mm like thousands of other people are going to do.

As far as the .260 vs the 6.5/.284 go I have to wonder why people label the 6.5/.284 a barrel burner when compared to a .260. Load the 6.5/.284 to .260velocities with slow burning powder and have brass that lasts forever. You want to get to 3000 fps with a 140gr 6.5 bullet you pay for it. Was it not PO Ackley that stated that a case that shot a bullet weight with a third of the bullets weight in powder charge was near ideal and not considered overbore?

Why does an improved version of a .260 or 6.5x55 get to be a better case? Unless you are using a different barrel to fire-form loads you are still having to fire-form loads and this creates wear. fire-form with Cream of Wheat and you use fast burning powders that create heat that wears a barrel.

I believe people are confusing benchrest accuracy and usable barrel life when comparing these rounds.
 
The biggest concern about the 6.5-284, and what prompted my 6.5 Mystic, is load density. This can have an affect on velocity variations which leads to stringing at LR.

The 284 is huge and even when run hard, there is still room in the case. With reduced loads, powder location can have a very dramatic effect on velocities (depends a great deal on primer/powder combos). You will not see much if any group change at 100/200yds, but start testing at beyond 500yds, and you will see what I mean.

I like 100% load density, even a little compressed. At magnum pressures, the powders like H4831SC burn very clean too. Certainly one way to get ES into the single digits.

Of course, the 6.5-284 has done extremely well but this is usually at full tilt. We are all looking for the smallest of details to improve accuracy. If some are willing to weigh/measure primers, I think improving load density makes a whole bunch more sense with real world benefits.

As to the brass question, there are many top level US 1000yd BR shooters that use 284 brass made by good old WINCHESTER. I have used Winchester308 brass with equal success.

So far, I have not found brass to significantly improve my shooting. I do sort all my brass through shooting after doing the normal turning, and trimming. Case volume is very important and my tests have shown same lot US commercial brass to be very well made. Each lot can vary so must be checked. But that can be said about any brand.

I have measured runout of neck turned, fireformed brass and the readings are within 1 thou true over the entire case (measured in three locations). I figure that is close enough.

The new Lapua case is very interesting and would make awesome 6mm wildcats. Not sure why Lapua would make it a 6.5 instead of a 6mm. Maybe there is more short range shooting in mind????

Jerry
 
The 6.5's are currently the calibre to beat at 1k, currently.
I think we are about to see the 6mm's take over. When Sierra widely markets the 115 DTAK and if our bullet making buddy from Wetaskawin (where'd he go?) makes a good bullet in that 115-to-120 grain class, it'll make the .243 a real contender.

And on the 6.5x47 Lapua, I believe it's a necked-up version of the 6x47 Swiss, with a small primer pocket.
 
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Very nice article. For those that do want to use any AI cartridge in a mag feeder, heed the last paragraphs in this article.

Most actions will not feed a sharp shouldered case smoothly or consistently without some very good tweaking. Center feed mags are your best choice in push feed actions.

Many CRF actions require a sharper 'up' angle when stripping a rd to get that rim under the extractor. This will usuall bind the shoulder into the top of the chamber. Believe me, I know...

For those looking to build a mag feeder and want to use an AI type case, the best bang out there is the new Savage 14/114 series of rifles. Dmag with center feed. Like the Accutrigger, I expect this mag system to become available in the tactical (FV, FP) line up in the coming year.

Gotta like that in a rifle...

Jerry
 
Jerry,

I agree with what you are saying but with my 6.5/.284 Shehane I use 54 grs of H4831sc and get single digit extreme spreads as measured by my Shooting Chrony. (Based on most findings with cheaper chronographs, they are not accurate enough to indicate single digit extreme spreads anyway.) My point is that a full case of powder seems to make little difference although I too try to keep load densities high in other cases.

Splatter, the 6.5x47 Lapua is not a necked up 6x47 Swiss Match case although the dimensions and capacities of both cases in 6mm would be very similar.
 
Troy, sure, and the .280 isn't a necked down .30-'06, because they push the shoulder 0.05" forward.
Other than some minor fiddling with the shoulder and the primer, what is the difference between the 6.5x47 Lapua necked to 6 and the 6x47SM?
 
Dan and Splatter,

I realize that you guys are saying that there is little functional difference between the two cases. My point is that the cases, dimensionally are not the same as many people on other forums think that a 6x47 SM is the same as the case based on the 222 necked up. Also, some people believe that the 6.5x47Lapua is a necked up 6x47 SM with no other changes. I was merely trying to point out that the two cases are not the exact same dimensionally in case you actually believed they were.

I don't know the exact case dimensions of the two cases, off the top of my head, but they have been posted and talked about several times over on 6mmBR.
 
Troy, the amount of powder you are running is pretty much a full case/load. Of course, it will run well. H4831SC always like toasty pressures/near max loadings.

What some are suggesting is running at reduced pressures/loads (less powder in case) to duplicate smaller cartridges ie running 2700 to 2850fps instead of 2900 to 3000fps. I don't like that as most powders will not perform consistently at reduced pressures (can even be dangerous) or when powder location varies.

With the BC of these bullets 3000fps is nice but not a necessity. 2900fps is more then sufficient and if that can be reached using 20% less powder and still retain accuracy, all the better.

My 6.5 Mystic does just that. I have had 46gr and 48gr as max loads given two lots of H4831SC. I will have no issue reaching 2850/2900fps in the 30" Gaillard. I might even get close to 2950/2975fps depending on what the barrel likes????

100% load density, 6 to 8gr less powder, within spitting distance of velocity, lower brass cost and way easier to find, increased barrel life, slightly less recoil.

Explains why there is such a push to go to the 260/Swede/Mystic/WSSM volume of case. I don't think the 6.5X47Lapua is big enough even at BR pressures. Way better as a 6mm - maybe even perfect.

My guess is that the 6.5X47 Lapua is a shorterned 308 case. Pretty close in length to the 6XC or 22-250.

With fashion demanding fat cases, no one would come out with a new cartridge based on something skinny like a 223 case. Besides you are still going to need 37 to 42gr of powder to push those 115/120gr bullets with any effect.

A most excellent development in LR shooting. Wonder if Ted/Ron make 6.5 twist 6mm barrels?

Jerry
 
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