1000m .308 win load options

tiriaq said:
I really like the .260, after years of shooting .308.
There are lots of excellent choices for shooting at longer ranges. The enhanced performance .30 bullets are really significant for F-TR with .308.
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I'm learning that. I love my 6.5x47. I just decided to try F-TR, and I was caught off guard by the .223 and .308 only rules....!!! Ah well, gave me an excuse to by a beauty rifle from a great dude (Jefferson), and a great scope from another great dude (Redrams).... and learn lots of good stuff from many of you.
 
168bergersapper said:
I ran my load through the chrony this morning with an average of 2601 fps.
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Too slow, gotta up your load. I'm avging 2730fps with 178 amax over 45.7gr varget. Thats my 1000+ load and it works well. You need the speed and the weight so to the poster who suggested 155's, don't bother they get chucked around in the wind. KevinM. and I routinely hit up Edson (i'm guessing thats where you were) and the wind there is always a batch. Once had to hold over 6 MOA to the left to ring the 1300m gong but we got their on the 3rd shot. You're gonna have to accept the ballistic inefficiency of the 308 at ELR. I love the round cause of the price but it gets tough past 1000 with any wind.

I've heard of and wanted to try those 185 juggernauts but funds are tight atm.
 
tiriaq said:
Ran some numbers through the Sierra ballistics program...
A 155 Scenar launched at 2850fps will have 8.7 minutes of drift at 1000 with a 10mph wind. This is the observed velocity from my 27" Rock Creek barrel. 30" TruFlite is 2950.
With the 175SMK:
2800, 9.3moa.
2850, 9.0moa.
2900, 8.8moa.
I suspect that achieving these velocities might be problematic.
So no, the 155 Scenar will not get pushed around more in the breeze.
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I stand corrected, my personal observations of the 155 amax vs 178 was that at ELR the 178 was more reliable hitter. May have to go back and re work a 155 load since I have a box of scenarios sitting around.
 
Shooting is only interesting when the wind is blowing. If the wind doesn't blow, it is just a hold and squeeze game.

Since I am a TR shooter, I have shot just about every 155 gr bullet on the market at long range. While some swear that "X" bullet will shoot better than "Y" bullet, it really comes down to who reads the wind the best. TR shooters hold the rifle, only supported by your shooting jacket and sling and using iron sights. I have too many other things to worry about getting the shot off cleanly and quickly without having to worry about the difference between 8 moa and 8 1/2 moa. The bull is 2 minutes in TR and I really don't care which side of the bull that I use.
 
maynard said:
Shooting is only interesting when the wind is blowing. If the wind doesn't blow, it is just a hold and squeeze game.

Since I am a TR shooter, I have shot just about every 155 gr bullet on the market at long range. While some swear that "X" bullet will shoot better than "Y" bullet, it really comes down to who reads the wind the best. TR shooters hold the rifle, only supported by your shooting jacket and sling and using iron sights. I have too many other things to worry about getting the shot off cleanly and quickly without having to worry about the difference between 8 moa and 8 1/2 moa. The bull is 2 minutes in TR and I really don't care which side of the bull that I use.
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Hey!!! Keep your common sense to yourself, we're trying to have a pissing match here!!!!

Shooting is still interesting for me without wind!!! I hope to get to the point when a calm day is boring.....

I'm at stage 2 of the "new shooters talk about rifles, experienced shooters talk about loads, masters talk about wind...."

One day, one day....
 
^ Yes saw that and thats why I stood corrected. As said I have a box of scenars kicking around that I'm gonna play with now since I'm low on 178's and prices are high atm.
 
You can attack the situation in a multitude of ways, but I prefer heavier and faster.

Regarding 175gr, SAFELY try to find a node with more powder. Since you are using varget, I guarantee you will find one around 45.0GR. It should net you around 2750fps on a 24ish barrel.

I have a load for 208AMAX and 175's Berger VLD's. I go back and forth, but both deliver.

As mentioned, 308's are a bit more susceptible to wind than other cartridges and barrel burners. Great learning tool none-the less. We've had first round hits at 850y with 10MOA holdovers. It's rewarding.

With .308 in the wind, things get real spicy after 800 rounds if the wind is not consistent.
 
Gunslingr said:
Too slow, gotta up your load. I'm avging 2730fps with 178 amax over 45.7gr varget. Thats my 1000+ load and it works well. You need the speed and the weight so to the poster who suggested 155's, don't bother they get chucked around in the wind. KevinM. and I routinely hit up Edson (i'm guessing thats where you were) and the wind there is always a batch. Once had to hold over 6 MOA to the left to ring the 1300m gong but we got their on the 3rd shot. You're gonna have to accept the ballistic inefficiency of the 308 at ELR. I love the round cause of the price but it gets tough past 1000 with any wind.

I've heard of and wanted to try those 185 juggernauts but funds are tight atm.
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I was indeed at the Edson range. I'm defiantly going to work up a new load. Probably either the 178 Amax or HPBT match. Now for my next question: Load testing for ELR. Always in the past I would work up a load using a Ladder test shot at 300m. Is this common practice with ELR shooters or is there another prefered testing method?
 
168bergersapper said:
I was indeed at the Edson range. I'm defiantly going to work up a new load. Probably either the 178 Amax or HPBT match. Now for my next question: Load testing for ELR. Always in the past I would work up a load using a Ladder test shot at 300m. Is this common practice with ELR shooters or is there another prefered testing method?
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Test over a chronograph. A load with so-so ES/SD might shoot okay at 300, but it won't stand up at 1000.
 
Viper26 said:
Test over a chronograph. A load with so-so chrono numbers might shoot okay at 300, but it won't stand up at 1000.
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I'm not looking to argue at all, but from what I've read it's better to shoot off a setup that is as stable as possible, on a calm day, and look for vertical dispersion, or lack of it, at 2 or 300 rather than trusting the accuracy of a chrono. I'm told pulling out the chrono should be the final step, and used only to determine MV so you can build yourself a ballistics table.

GGG
 
SD is crucial and acknowledged as such by longrange shooters with 10 fps SD and lower being necessary. Of course you also require top safe reliable V.

Best regards,

Peter
 
Gunneegoogoo said:
I'm not looking to argue at all, but from what I've read it's better to shoot off a setup that is as stable as possible, on a calm day, and look for vertical dispersion, or lack of it, at 2 or 300 rather than trusting the accuracy of a chrono. I'm told pulling out the chrono should be the final step, and used only to determine MV so you can build yourself a ballistics table.

GGG
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I understand what you're saying. The problem I have with the Ladder and OCW methods is they assume every shot is perfect. Even with a solid rest, there's a degree of human error in every shot which messes up the result. I still shoot verification groups at 300 but going to the chrono first allows me to focus on the loads with low ES/SD that will probably perform best at distance.
 
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Gunneegoogoo said:
I'm not looking to argue at all, but from what I've read it's better to shoot off a setup that is as stable as possible, on a calm day, and look for vertical dispersion, or lack of it, at 2 or 300 rather than trusting the accuracy of a chrono. I'm told pulling out the chrono should be the final step, and used only to determine MV so you can build yourself a ballistics table.

GGG
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Thats all well and good but if at the end you find out your load is a dog in the velocity dept. all your previous effort is wasted (to some degree).
You can run lower nodes on many other cartridges and be effective. .30 cal bullets are relatively poor in BC and the .308Win is limited in capacity. You start with 2-strikes against you straight out of the gate.
IMO if you want to shoot .308 effectively at distance you should be running the high node with whatever bullet you choose.

Someone posted tight groups with their .308 with 168's or 175's at around 2200fps. Sure the thing may drive tacks out to 300 but have fun with that at 500+ with even the slightest conditions.
 
marcoman said:
Thats all well and good but if at the end you find out your load is a dog in the velocity dept. all your previous effort is wasted (to some degree).
You can run lower nodes on many other cartridges and be effective. .30 cal bullets are relatively poor in BC and the .308Win is limited in capacity. You start with 2-strikes against you straight out of the gate.
IMO if you want to shoot .308 effectively at distance you should be running the high node with whatever bullet you choose.

Someone posted tight groups with their .308 with 168's or 175's at around 2200fps. Sure the thing may drive tacks out to 300 but have fun with that at 500+ with even the slightest conditions.
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Just throwing this out there, but to max out the V, why not push up .3gr of powder at a time until you find stiff bolt lift/extractor marks, and then go back down to the vertical spread node below .1gr at a time??

You all likely have caught on that I'm spurting from Jerry's article where he advocates for 2 shot groups. I like his reasoning, except for the 2 shot group part, as I agree with whoever said it above that even with a rest and bags, etc, human error will be present. I'm gonna do 5 shot groups. I do like the concept of using the "end measure" (vertical spread) as your outcome measure rather than using ES/SD on a somewhat low cost chrono as a surrogate measure.

Do you guys trust your chrono's to be truly that accurate?? I'm asking, not stirring sh!t.
 
168bergersapper said:
I was indeed at the Edson range. I'm defiantly going to work up a new load. Probably either the 178 Amax or HPBT match. Now for my next question: Load testing for ELR. Always in the past I would work up a load using a Ladder test shot at 300m. Is this common practice with ELR shooters or is there another prefered testing method?
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I did my ladder test at 200 then a confirm of best group at 2 and 300m but thats just me, this is gonna be a chevy vs ford discussion. The gremlin chasers will tell you thats not good enough, I'll tell you it is cause as long as I can ring the head and torso gong at 1300 by the second shot I'm happy. All depends how much you want to chase every last little bit of accuracy. I know guys who load like its a science experiment, they do everything to control that each round is absolutely identical. Me, I can't be bothered.

Also i've had good luck with the AMAX but i do find that OAL of the bullet due to the flex tip can be an issue and if your into chasing round OAL for consistency between rounds it'll drive you up the wall cause you'll have a few thou margin of error between rounds due to the tip. I load to 2.800 OAL so I can mag feed but that varies between 2.805 and 2.795 (or at least thats the margin I shoot for) and the gremlin chasers would never allow for such.
 
Gunslingr said:
I did my ladder test at 200 then a confirm of best group at 2 and 300m but thats just me, this is gonna be a chevy vs ford discussion. The gremlin chasers will tell you thats not good enough, I'll tell you it is cause as long as I can ring the head and torso gong at 1300 by the second shot I'm happy. All depends how much you want to chase every last little bit of accuracy. I know guys who load like its a science experiment, they do everything to control that each round is absolutely identical. Me, I can't be bothered.

Also i've had good luck with the AMAX but i do find that OAL of the bullet due to the flex tip can be an issue and if your into chasing round OAL for consistency between rounds it'll drive you up the wall cause you'll have a few thou margin of error between rounds due to the tip. I load to 2.800 OAL so I can mag feed but that varies between 2.805 and 2.795 (or at least thats the margin I shoot for) and the gremlin chasers would never allow for such.
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"Gremlin chasers" use a comparator and measure to the ogive.
 
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marcoman said:
"Gremlin chasers" use a comparator and measure to the ogive.
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I thought that too (I'm chasing gremlins HARD right now), then I thought "if he can hit a head and torso target at 1300 on the second shot, he must onto something".....

I guess I'll draw my own conclusions after trying all these gremlin killers on my reloading bench. If he's right, there'll be a lot of precision bits for sale....!!!
 
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