17 hornet reloading

amosfella

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I got bored of reading today, and so I decided to play a little bit with reloading. I had access to a new to me cartridge and gun and thought I'd see what happens with a few oddball parameters for reloading...

So, The rifle was a CZ american in 17 hornady hornet. The brass was Hornady, the primers were remington 7.5 match, and the projectiles were 25 gr hornady hp.

The powder was WC735 which some say is similar to data powder 2200 or AA2200. I don't know about the powder for sure. I've never played with data powder 2200 or AA2200... In my humble opinion, it's been fairly similar to H322... Higginson's says that it's 5% slower than H335. There is no data that I could find for this powder and the 17 hornet...

Anyways, today was a pressure and brass life test.

The first 2 pieces I was working on were destroyed by the mouth of the case not being opened up enough to accept the projectile by the dies. I used a brass rod that I had laying around to widen the very end of the case mouth to make seating easier... As a side note, I kept the brass lightly lubed with lithium grease for firing. The whole test was done with one case until verification...

So, as I figured the powder to be about equivalent to H322, I started out with the hodgedon data for that powder and bullet... 12 gr. I increased that amount by 0.1 gr per shot as that's about a reasonable amount and close to a 1% increase per shot. so, by the time I was maxed out of case capacity, I was at 14.2 gr, and the powder had to be settled by tapping to case to get most of the neck cleared for seating. The case was full length sized between each shot. The COAL was kept about 1.745"-1.752".

I kept an eye on the growth of the case neck after each shot. The case after 27 shots (I repeated a few due to other factors) had grown from 1.345" to 1.362". The primer pockets were still fairly tight. The brass had a reasonable amount of neck tension with out annealing it and wasn't showing signs of cracking, although it was probably hardened somewhat as it was seeming to be springing back when pulled out of the sizing die. I think that with an annealing and a trim, this case will still have a useful life.

This test wasn't about ladder testing, or accuracy. It was purely about pressure.... And the sine wave on the neck.

At 13.3-13.5 gr, it had a perfect sine wave pattern that went from the neck to the very edge of the shoulder. It got lopsided at 13.6 to 14 gr of powder. One side wasn't coming back up as high as the other. At 14 gr, the pattern became more symmetrical, and by 14.2, it was almost symmetrical again...

So, when that was done, I pulled up 5 once fired brass and loaded them at 13.4 gr, and 5 more to be loaded at 14.2 gr. The ones loaded up at 14.2 gr had much fainter carbon markings on the neck of the case, and what seemed to be less black in the mouth of the case.

In the next few days, I'm going to play the the distance off the lands with 14.2 gr of powder, and see what comes of it. First, I have to make a bullet comparitor for my comparitor set...

As for velocity, I have no idea what it was. I may set up my chronograph and test a few of them. If I ever get around to getting a tripod.

The primers weren't flattened. The base wasn't overly expanded. Nothing seems to be really wrong with the case...

As a side note, I don't like these hornady dies. I think they well and thoroughly overwork the neck brass and have an undersized expander ball...

I'd like to see what I could do with this particular gun and RWS brass that I would have to reform. I'm working with a friend in Germany to get me some once fired RWS brass in 22 hornet.

Anyways, I hope you guys who like the hornet find this read enjoyable.
 
I used a brass rod that I had laying around to widen the very end of the case mouth to make seating easier... As a side note, I kept the brass lightly lubed with lithium grease for firing.

I have loaded hundreds of rounds for the 17Hornet, with no issues seating bullets, you should not have to use a brass rod to open up the case mouth. What are you getting for neck tension? As for the Lithium grease, I do not fire any ammunition that has any type of lube on the case, they should be clean and dry. As for your load, shooting some groups will tell you far more than looking at the carbon pattern on the cases.
 
I have loaded hundreds of rounds for the 17Hornet, with no issues seating bullets, you should not have to use a brass rod to open up the case mouth. What are you getting for neck tension? As for the Lithium grease, I do not fire any ammunition that has any type of lube on the case, they should be clean and dry. As for your load, shooting some groups will tell you far more than looking at the carbon pattern on the cases.

After much research and experimentation, I have come to the conclusion that lubing the case for firing is actually beneficial. The cases seem to stretch at a much slower rate than dry cases. Here's some more research. http://www.varmintal.com/a243zold.htm

Neck tension was about 0.167-0.168. The expander ball is about 0.170. I think I want to get a lee collet die made for the gun.

Yes, shooting some groups will tell more about accuracy than looking at carbon patterns on the neck. However, as was said in the first post, this test was more about pressure and brass life than accuracy.
 
After much research and experimentation, I have come to the conclusion that lubing the case for firing is actually beneficial. The cases seem to stretch at a much slower rate than dry cases. Here's some more research. http://www.varmintal.com/a243zold.htm

Neck tension was about 0.167-0.168. The expander ball is about 0.170. I think I want to get a lee collet die made for the gun.

Yes, shooting some groups will tell more about accuracy than looking at carbon patterns on the neck. However, as was said in the first post, this test was more about pressure and brass life than accuracy.

A lubed case results in more thrust against the bolt, and premature pressure signs at high pressures. I have seen issues with abnormal resistance on bolt lift, with loads that were not producing abnormal velocity, when the person was leaving case lube on his loaded rounds. Wiping the lube off of the cases, made the issue disappear. Neck tension would be the difference between the OD of the neck of a sized case, and the OD of that same case with a bullet seated. I prefer around .002" for my loads.
 
A lubed case results in more thrust against the bolt, and premature pressure signs at high pressures. I have seen issues with abnormal resistance on bolt lift, with loads that were not producing abnormal velocity, when the person was leaving case lube on his loaded rounds. Wiping the lube off of the cases, made the issue disappear. Neck tension would be the difference between the OD of the neck of a sized case, and the OD of that same case with a bullet seated. I prefer around .002" for my loads.

I've actually experienced quite the opposite of premature pressure signs. Bolt lift resistance decreases dramatically, while brass life increased by at least 3X so far. I'm still using that brass. Maybe it depends on the type of lube. I could see that sticky oil that RCBS or Lyman sell causing problems... That stuff was thick like grease, and not very slick. That is literally the only thing I can think of... I haven't used normal case lube for years. I'd like to try white graphite as soon as I can get some.

Computer modeling tests have shown a max increase in bolt thrust of 7%. In modern guns, that's not enough to worry about. The 270 win that I did work on loading, I started with new cases that I greased, and kept them greased throughout load development. Over 4 grains of max load in lee's new loading book, the primers were just starting to flatten, meaning they were just starting to not be as rounded as they were when new. No other pressure signs on the case. 10X fired, once trimmed and twice annealed. Never cleaned other than wiped lightly with a dry rag. Still look almost new. I had pushed it further, but settled on that load as it seemed most accurate. 150 gr bullet going approximate average of 3050 fps shooting a 1.4" group at 200 yards.

And what were these signs of higher pressure?? Besides sticky bolt lift?? I have not experienced that ever with lithium grease. And lithium grease doesn't pick up dirt any more than a dry case does. And it repels water like crazy.

I would seriously suggest trying it before commenting further.
 
I've actually experienced quite the opposite of premature pressure signs. Bolt lift resistance decreases dramatically, while brass life increased by at least 3X so far. I'm still using that brass. Maybe it depends on the type of lube. I could see that sticky oil that RCBS or Lyman sell causing problems... That stuff was thick like grease, and not very slick. That is literally the only thing I can think of... I haven't used normal case lube for years. I'd like to try white graphite as soon as I can get some.

Computer modeling tests have shown a max increase in bolt thrust of 7%. In modern guns, that's not enough to worry about. The 270 win that I did work on loading, I started with new cases that I greased, and kept them greased throughout load development. Over 4 grains of max load in lee's new loading book, the primers were just starting to flatten, meaning they were just starting to not be as rounded as they were when new. No other pressure signs on the case. 10X fired, once trimmed and twice annealed. Never cleaned other than wiped lightly with a dry rag. Still look almost new. I had pushed it further, but settled on that load as it seemed most accurate. 150 gr bullet going approximate average of 3050 fps shooting a 1.4" group at 200 yards.

And what were these signs of higher pressure?? Besides sticky bolt lift?? I have not experienced that ever with lithium grease. And lithium grease doesn't pick up dirt any more than a dry case does. And it repels water like crazy.

I would seriously suggest trying it before commenting further.

The concern was increased bolt lift and shiny marks on the case head from rubbing on the bolt face. The shooter was thinking that it was a case of excessive chamber pressure, but it was simply a case of excessive bolt thrust. Once the cases were clean and dry, the load was actually worked up a bit, with no issues.
 
The concern was increased bolt lift and shiny marks on the case head from rubbing on the bolt face. The shooter was thinking that it was a case of excessive chamber pressure, but it was simply a case of excessive bolt thrust. Once the cases were clean and dry, the load was actually worked up a bit, with no issues.

I have not had any of those kinds of issues. No rubbing on case heads. Bolt lift is easier.

Here are pics of the 27x fired case. Pics are the best I could do. But as you can see, the case is not showing pressure signs. The primer is showing the pressure from the last 14.2 gr load. It is barely flattening from new.

2016-02-20_11-51-47 by wolverine00089, on Flickr

2016-02-20_11-52-02 by wolverine00089, on Flickr
 
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After much research and experimentation, I have come to the conclusion that lubing the case for firing is actually beneficial. The cases seem to stretch at a much slower rate than dry cases. Here's some more research. http://www.varmintal.com/a243zold.htm

Neck tension was about 0.167-0.168. The expander ball is about 0.170. I think I want to get a lee collet die made for the gun.

Yes, shooting some groups will tell more about accuracy than looking at carbon patterns on the neck. However, as was said in the first post, this test was more about pressure and brass life than accuracy.

From the Varmintal.com link that you posted

* Note: I am not suggesting using lubricant on ammunition brass. I am merely trying to identify how this low of a friction coefficient might possibly be obtained.
 
From the Varmintal.com link that you posted

* Note: I am not suggesting using lubricant on ammunition brass. I am merely trying to identify how this low of a friction coefficient might possibly be obtained.

I know what he said. he's trying to limit his liability should something possibly go wrong. It's lawyer talk... Kind of like 'use this information at your own risk'.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=466502

Slamfire and Mehavey have some good info on that posted.
 
I think the experience with lubed cases depends on the type of lube used. The stuff that comes in the small bottle from RCBS and Lyman is very sticky and not slick at all imho, and very well could cause the problems you and Jim Watson and F. Guffey mention. There's a reason that I specifically chose to use the spray on type of white lithium grease. Also, it is the easiest to use for sizing as it seems to create the least resistance in the sizing dies. I have never had a stuck case while using it. I've had stuck cases with just about everything else, except ATF. ATF was a mess to clean off as you don't want that in your chamber...
 
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