1886 Winchester 45/70 loads

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Mike Webb

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I have an 1886 lever gun in .45/70. It was made in the 1890's and is good mechanically but pretty much a "grey gun" finish wise. I know technically these were designed for black powder but I guarantee it has been fed smokeless many times in the intervening years as were most of the period guns. Remington factory loads used to be 405 grain at 1300 fps, a mild load for the older rifles. Looked recently and the factory specs are 405 grain moved up to 1600 fps. Sellier and Bellot catalogue a 405 grain at around 1500 fps. Would these loads be too hard on the old 86 even though they are still mild compared to what you can handload the .45/70 to in a Ruger No.1?
 
I had pictures somewhere of an early "smokeless" one which blew up after being shot many times with moderate loads. The owner cried his eyes out many times over. I wouldn't want to get there.
There was an article in Gun Digest on .45/70 Gallery loads with 200ish cast bullets in 2017 (71th).
 
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Good answer. A pal of mine here, since moved to France to escape all the mess of UK gun laws, had a similar rifle in great condition, as, indeed, it ought to have been for the >$4000 it cost him. He NEVER shot anything in it except the Holy Black, and, given the difficulty of getting the full 70gr into a modern case, settled on 55gr of 2Fg and a 405gr hard-cast bullet all the time he was here to shoot it. It was still pretty lively to shoot, I recall, but this place being what it is, he never used it on live game, not having any interest in doing so.

Edit - I've just remembered that it was post-1894, and therefore probably of all-steel construction like the model 94.
 
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I own an 1886 in what sounds like very similar condition. A couple of things to be a bit weary of. First the rifling in most of the earlier barrels is very shallow, so i wouldn't recommend using jacketed bullets unless you have to. Second, you can shoot smokeless loads, but unless you have a need to, keep the loads on the milder side. The gun will handle heavier loads, but I'm personally loading mine to original BP velocities using Unique. in my gun over a chronograph, a powder coated Cast Lee 405gr hollow base bullet with 15.5gr of unique does 1207fps, for comparison, 70gr of GOEX FFg did about 1220, so close enough and saves the trouble of disassembly to clean BP fouling. A nice plinking load that is very easy on the gun would be to use trail boss, or i use 10gr of unique. does about 1000 FPS or so. These guns can shoo quite accurately!
 
My research over the years has resulted in the following for the Winchester Model 1886 ;
1 - Made from 1886 to 1902 ( about ser. # 122,000) were made for BP Loads with max. press. of 28,000 psi.
These guns had case hardened receivers & regular steel barrels.
2 - Made from 1902 to 1932 ( about ser. # 160,000) were made for smokeless loads @ 40,000 psi max.
These guns had Nickle Steel Barrels ( marked as such) & blued receivers.

In order to enjoy target shooting all my .45-70 '86 collection ( BP & Smokeless) & Trapdoors I mostly load
a light target load. 385 gr. cast over 12 gr. of Unique with a WLR primmer. I have enjoyed a few decads of
this load with excellent results. No filler used.
 
My 86' ser #'s to a 1887 manuf. It has been rode hard & put away wet and has a some pitting in the bore but otherwise straight and no cracks in the frame.

I have shot 405 cast thru it in the past but 23 gr of 4759 only pushed them 11-1200 fps....but that was before powder coating came into my life. Now i shoot exclusively 200 or 250 gr .452 pistol slugs PC'd up to .459 dia. With the demise of 4759, I have switched to 5744. I use the exact same powder charge with the 200-250 gr slugs as I do in my 405 gr loads for my Marlin Cowboy. A charge of 26 gr push's the 405's in my Cowboy at 1125 fps and the 250's at 1300 fps. There is a significant difference in recoil between the 405's in the Cowboy and the 250's in the 86, recoil in the 86 is almost non existent.
The accuracy of the 200-250 gr in both rifles is within my rating criteria as excellent around 1" in the Cowboy and that old 86 will put them within 2" all day, even with the pitted bore.
 
Thanks for the input. Maybe Cowboy loads are the way to go with the older 86 Winchesters. I still am certain this rifle has been fed a lot of smokeless loads since the turn of the century. Probably the standard 405 grain at around 1300 fps. Way below 22,000 CUP for pressure, I am sure.
 
Mike Webb said:
Thanks for the input. Maybe Cowboy loads are the way to go with the older 86 Winchesters. I still am certain this rifle has been fed a lot of smokeless loads since the turn of the century. Probably the standard 405 grain at around 1300 fps. Way below 22,000 CUP for pressure, I am sure.
Click to expand...

I think it would be wise to avoid the 45-70 Leverution shells I am under the impression that they are loaded hot for a modern Marlin lever action rifle. If you are handloading with smokeless, Lyman's manuals have 3 sets of load tables; first is for trapdoor springfields, second is for model 86 s and similar and the third table is for the Ruger #1 If you handload to trapdoor levels, there should be no problems. Also there is or was in the recent past, still mild loads being sold, intended to be safe in both antique and modern rifles

cheers mooncoon
 
405 grain hard cast at trap Door velocities is a killer on game. Nice to shoot and easy on guns. By Trap Door velocity I am talking 1300 to 1400 FPS. Jet bullets make a dandy plain base 405 hard cast in .460 diameter works great in my 1895 Marlin. I do shoot IMR4198 but black powder would work nicely too.

Darryl
 
That used to be the ballistics of the Remington factory load(405 at 1300) now listed at 1600fps. I have read jacketed bullets may be harder on the older soft steel barrels as well. For factory ammo the Cowboy loads should work for woods hunting I would guess.
 
I have used BP & BP-equivalent smokeless loads to kill a few deer , 45-70,38-55, 38-56, and a .54 cal muzzleloader , all with cast bullets and nothing over 1200 fps, from 80 yrds to 245 yrds and have never recovered a slug, every shot with the big slugs was a complete pass-through. The ML .54 kill was at around 200 yrds ( scoped Hawken, desperation shot with 5 minutes light left last day of season) with a TC 465 gr mini. The 245 yrd shot was with a scoped ( 24 " x 3/4" tube scope) Italian replica RB in 45 -70 with a 350 gr BB commercial hard cast.....Your Cowboy rounds will work quite well as hunter rounds.
 
Mike Webb said:
That used to be the ballistics of the Remington factory load(405 at 1300) now listed at 1600fps. I have read jacketed bullets may be harder on the older soft steel barrels as well. For factory ammo the Cowboy loads should work for woods hunting I would guess.
Click to expand...

One needs to do a bit of research when opting for suitable factory loads for these old rifles. The fact is, that Remington has two separate loadings in 45-70 with the 405gr core lokt bullet. One is the afformentioned load, product number 21459 that produces 1600fps, the other is product number 29473 and is the traditional loading at 1330 fps. This last one is the one you want, and is suitable for Trapdoors etc.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the 1886.45/90 wcf was an "express" rifle, meaning it had slower twist for lighter, higher velocity bullets. I'm too lazy to go measure the twist in mine, but it was a tack driver with 350 grain bullets. I put lots of smokeless through it, with no problem, as well as black. Trying to clean the black out of it is challenging. It.gets everywhere...
 
I have acquired one made in 1902 and will probably remain at around 1300fps with a 405 gr bullet.
Not that I fear it can't handle more pressure but from experience I have found that is more than adequate for distance with open sights.
The steel butt plate doesn't get anymore comfortable at higher speeds either.
With a Marlin at 1700 fps, the penetration with a 405 far exceeds any body mass that you may encounter.
Unless you are shooting buffalo sized critters on a regular basis at great distance, 1300 fps will suffice.
 
I'd do what Mooncoon says. Just load to trapdoor levels with cast bullets. Ideally softer ones as the hard bullets are less likely to obdurate at lower pressures. Some powders will still give you a fair bit of velocity with low pressure anyway. I'd be wary of some of the Reloder 7 loads you see, unless you have a chronograph. Some of the manuals are still using old days from when Reloder7 was made by Hercules and it acts differently in the .45-70. Like max velocity with starting loads....

I like H-4198 for "trapdoor loads" and always use a magnum primer. Same with light trapdoor loads of IMR-3031.

Once you get over 1400-1500 fps ( should be achievable with trapdoor loads in your rifle ) then the rifle becomes a lot less enjoyable to shoot anyway.

Chris.
 
I don't have any kind of a Winchester in .45-70 Govt, but I do have a High Wall. A good load - for me, YMMV - is 34gr of H4198 under a 405gr hard-cast lead bullet. The load is topped out with CoW. My rifle has a 32" barrel, so that might account for the ~1250 fps I recall getting when I settled for a reasonable impressive load.
 
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