1892 ejection issues?

[alpining]

Hi all - Can anyone advise on what "normal" ejection with the 1892 looks like?

I've always heard that they are pretty energetic throwing brass, but are they also supposed to be consistent? As in, same general direction and distance thrown?

Mine in 45LC is very inconsistent, regardless of how fast you cycle it - Most types of brass will eject 100% of the time but all over the place (Fed, Rem, S&B). Winchester brass won't eject at all if it's the last round fired (no live round under it on the lifter). It extracts fine, but winds up sitting flat in the action. I haven't found any differences in brass dimensions between brands.

Loaded cartridges show strong ejection (with all types of brass).

Any input would be appreciated! Rifle problem, brass problem, or operator problem?

 

[Alex McKr]

alpining: The 1892's powerful ejection often seems to launch cases into orbit. Most should land in the same general area. But not always. In your case though, there could be another issue.

Try this quick check: Use any brand of brass for this test:
Note: Since you mentioned having a problem with Winchester brass in particular, this might be a good one to start with. But do try the same test with other brands of brass.

Insert an empty case into the chamber. Close the bolt(case rim fully under the extractor claw). Then, open the bolt slowly. Does the case eject easily(brass should readily pop out, clear the action and end up on the ground)?

Or, does it pop off the extractor claw and remain in the action?

If so, I suspect the problem lies with the ejector. A very common cause of weak or erratic case ejection, with the 1892.

Source: The ejector spring is too weak. Or: the spring has popped off its strut*. Note: *Most likely the problem.

There may be an issue with the extractor claw being worn, misshaped, or the spring is weak. But, start with the ejector first.

If you've dis-assembled the rifle for cleaning, etc., the usual culprit occurs during re-assembly.

When re-inserting the bolt, the ejector spring may have popped off its retaining strut (ejector has to be held fully compressed, when inserting the bolt. Then remain so, until the ejector spring is captured.). This often isn't easy to spot, when it happens. One way to check: Push the ejector collar in, with the tip of your finger. You should feel firm resistance. If not and the ejector collar moves easily under finger pressure, the spring is off. Requires dis-assembling the action and re-installing the ejector assembly. If this is the case, the cure is fairly straightforward. Will describe how it's done later, if needed.

Hope this helps: Al

ps: Which brand of 1892? New? Or used? This may help if having to source parts, etc.

 

[alpining]

Wow, thanks Alex, appreciate the info.

It's a new Rossi. A smith from the retail shop it came from has had it apart several times to work on feeding problems, but it has always had this ejection problem. I'd guess that the smith reassembled it correctly, he seems competent, but I can't be sure.

Slow opening of the bolt shows that Winchester cases seem to pop off the extractor just as the front of the brass clears the top of the chamber. The ejector spring is factory, and it feels very stiff - I can move it with a tool with heavy pressure while the action is open, but it does feel gritty.

Is extractor engagement is the problem? Or ejector travel? Why would be worse with Winchester brass? Other brass ejects fairly well, but front and back and to the side.

 

[Alex McKr]

alpining: Some further thoughts to follow. But, the first thing I would recommend is swapping out the factory ejector spring, for an aftermarket one. Spring kits are available through: Rusty Wood Trading. Rossi ejector springs are notoriously way over powered. The aftermarket springs, though lighter tension, do provide smoother and easier case ejection. Usually the first thing I do with a Rossi, is replace the springs. This alone, may solve your problem. Still, there may be other issues, so...

Some ramblings:

Even with the stiff factory ejector spring, the ejector collar should move back under firm finger pressure. The fact that it is hard to move....plus feels gritty, leads me to believe that it may be hanging up in its recess. You may need to disassemble the action and check the bolt end recess and ejector collar, for burrs or rough machining. Then, polish as necessary. Likewise, check the ejector spring strut. It could be bent, or otherwise misaligned. If so, the ejector collar might be jamming a bit on one side or the other of its recess. Or, the spring strut(or rod, if you like), is binding in its slot in the stud. The spring may be hanging up on it, too. These parts aren't finely finished in Rossi rifles, so often need a bit of attention. Generally a bit of polishing.

Why only Winchester brass, is a mystery. It should eject as easily as the rest. Did other brands eject okay...

The condition you describe with cases popping off the extractor indicates that there could be a problem with extractor claw engagement.. Or the spring. Ideally, the function of the extractor is to grip the rim and hold the case against the top of the chamber, under slight pressure. As it clears the chamber mouth, the case flips upward, as the ejector pops the case forward. The case then flips up and out, as the bolt moves to the rear. Generally in the same direction. Since yours are ejecting erratically, the extractor may be causing part of the problem. Uneven extractor tension may cause cases to come out crookedly... causing them to bang against either cartridge guide, on the way out. This can cause cases to eject erratically.

The extractor claw should have a good sharp edge on it. Plus, evenly curved across its width. If worn, unevenly cut or too short, this can cause problems with function. Likewise, if the spring is weak, this can cause engagement issues.

Try this test: As you slowly close the bolt on an empty test case(same as live round), you should feel some resistance, and the extractor claw should snap firmly over the case rim. If the engagement is weak, either the claw is defective in some way, or the spring needs replacement.

But, I am not fully convinced this is the sole source of the problem.

Since both ejector and extractor need to work in harmony for best results: It is also possible that a sticky ejector may be adding to ejection timing issues, too. If the ejector hangs up or is too weak, the ejector collar fails to move far enough forward, with sufficient force.....so, the case tends to fall downward as it leaves the chamber. Usually ending up popping off the extractor claw and dropping onto the elevator. As you observed, this generally happens with the last round. Often, this issue is solved simply by replacing a too-weak ejector spring with a stronger one. But not always.....so my advice at the top of the page.

This information may be useful: Cartridge feeding issues often start at the loading gate. Very often by a loose, or misadjusted loading gate. The loading gate also acts as a cartridge stop. So, if cartridges are double feeding and one gets pushed past the stop, it jams up the action. In some cases I`ve observed, the gate spring had too much curvature in it. Once straightened out a bit, it worked fine. Also, the cartridge guides on either side of the receiver can cause feeding issues. Sometimes one or the other requires a shim to make cartridges feed smoothly onto the bolt face. Your gunsmith may have already addressed these issues. Simply mentioned for information purposes.

Finally: Likely the best person to contact for troubleshooting advice on Rossi rifles, is: Steve Young (aka Nate Kiowa Jones).. Steve is an accomplished gunsmith and authority on the Rossi `92. Simply go to the StevesGunz.com website, for contact info. or Google: Nate Kiowa Jones. That should also bring you to his site.

Pretty longwinded, but hopefully of some use.

Al

 

[fingers284]

As usual, excellent posts from Alex...I will add my experience with "mechanicing" 92 rifles used in cowboy matches.
Ejection from a 92 can be very accurately "tuned" to drop within a 36" circle within a desired distance from the shooter by trimming the spring and using the same manufacture brass. Untuned rifles (especially original Winchesters) are known for launching brass far off into the unkown deep grass. I say "using same manuf brass" because brass rims , (especially on the small rims of colt 45's ) are not all manuf to the same spec. some have a sharp indide rim edge otheres are a slight bit rounded and still others can be very rounded...and some, with a bit of use can wear rounded. Your extractor claw will grip each design a bit different ...again the very small lip on .45 brass makes this more of a problem.
Using uniform rim construction & lessening the spring pressure on ejector plunger will give you some relief from the issue I'm betting.
The other issue you mention is feeding problems...unfortunately, I know of no one in creation that can fix feeding problems in any 92 action used at speed...I and hundreds of others have tried to overcome stove-piping & live round ejection off the elevator but I know of no one that has mastered them...a lot of folks are very adept at slicking up the 92 action ( I consider Rusty Wood the best 92 mechanic in Canada) but even their creations will stove-pipe...usually worse at speed, than they did before...I am not diss'ing the 92 as a fun rifle, I own a # of them but speedy cowboy rifles their not.

 

[alpining]

Again, very useful, thanks very much.

I don't want to disassemble it myself at this point, because it is still under warranty. So unfortunately I can't check the ejector collar, spring strut, extractor shape, etc..

Other brands of brass eject 100%, but erratic directions. Do you agree that's likely the extractor shape?

The feeding issue appears unrelated to the loading gate. The cartridges seem to hang up just as they're about to enter the chamber. The cartridge guides were visibly misaligned from the factory, so the smith worked on the right side guide (moving the ramp forward) and now one out of four types of cartridges I have will feed (255gr Keith). It won't slow-feed this bullet, mind you, but with a brisk cycle that one type of cartridge will reliably chamber. The other types will still not feed at all (200gr LSWC, and 200 and 250gr RNFP). They all catch at the same point, just as the cartridge wants to nose into the chamber, just as the top edge of the brass is about to enter the top the chamber mouth. By sliding the cartridges with my finger, it feels like they are catching on the very bottom of the ramp(s) on the cartridge guide(s). I suspect that it's just the different profile of the 255gr Keith bullet that is helping the rim clear that bottom of the ramp, and that's the only reason those ones are chambering.

I'm really on the fence about keeping the rifle. They've offered to take it back, but it'll cost trying to find a replacement...

I've been in touch with Steve Young over the years, but I feel bad asking him for advice since he doesn't sell outside the US anymore! Thanks again for your help, I am very grateful.

 

[Alex McKr]

Fingers284: Quite true. My observations match yours. The 1892....regardless of make...has very many good points. But also, its share of quirks.

Al

 

[Alex McKr]

alpining: I am beginning to lean toward a faulty extractor. Plus, cartridge guide issues. Combined, these can cause the erratic case ejection you're experiencing.

You may also have an issue with elevator timing. The nose of the elevator appears not to be coming up high enough. So the case mouth or bullet shoulder, catches on the bottom of the chamber mouth. Sometimes encounter similar problems with Marlin 1894's. Usually wear related. But in your case, likely something else. Poorly fitted and timed finger lever and elevator mating points likely at fault, here.

The info on loading gates, etc., was included, simply for information. I don't think it plays a part in your current circumstance.

If you aren't hung up on this particular rifle....and it is still under warranty, I'd be tempted to return it. I don't believe these problems are going to go away easily. Plus, sure to cause more headaches, in the future. Though there are pricier options out there, the added cost may make it worthwhile over the long run.

Though the '92 will feed most bullet shapes, I am surprised that it won't feed RNFP. This bullet profile generally chambers the easiest, in the '92, as well as other rifles. Rossi rifles can be finicky about cartridge overall length, though. So, I'm not surprised that it might not digest 200 grain bullets. But should, a 250 grainer. Rossi '92's seem to be optimized for an overall cartridge length close to 1.600" (1.580 or thereabouts, generally very good). So perplexing. Goes back to elevator timing, is my take.

Al

ps: I am not happy that Steve doesn't currently ship to Canada, either. Good guy to deal with, over the years. Hopefully again. Palo Verde does ship to Canada, though.

 

[alpining]

Based on how the lifter and ramps must work together, I'm inclined to agree with you. That plus the ejection issue... I'm strongly leaning to a return. I'll chat with the smith and see if he has any bright ideas, but I'm not optimistic. Thanks very much for your input on this.

Thanks fingers for your addition about the brass. I like the 1892 action well enough to work with it.

Now, the question is whether I should roll the dice on another Rossi, or pony up for Miroku. I'm really set on a 16" barrel (or close to it), and I can only find 20" Miroku at the moment (I don't like the price or the takedown feature of the 16" Trapper). So, another few hundred to get it shortened, probably change the sites...

 

[Alex McKr]

alpining: If you can find another Rossi in the configuration you want, these rifles do make dependable arms with a bit of attention. Mostly smoothing and polishing the innards. About the same as the average Marlin 1894. I don't think I've run across one with the issues yours has. Poor luck of the draw.

The Miroku though, is an outstanding rifle. I own and really like the 1873 version. Excellent build quality, inside and out. Even with a 20" barrel, the 1892's short action makes it a very compact package. Cutting down the barrel is an option. Hard part is finding a smith with the skill to do the job right.

About the only smith I'd tap for the job, would be Peter Riedel(Rusty Wood).

Al

 

[alpining]

That's great to hear, thank you. I'll probably try another Rossi then - This is going to be a bush beater rifle, and I'd feel bad subjecting a Miroku to that treatment!

Rusty Wood is at the top of my list - I had talked with him about the barrel chop before I settled on trying the Rossi first time around. I've never had work done by him, but a few parts and reloading components orders over the years. Nothing but good to say about him.

Thanks again Al.

 

[Alex McKr]

alpining: I've had cowboy action competition rifles tuned by Rusty Wood(Peter). Top notch work. I recommend him to anyone looking for gunsmithing. Also plenty of parts, components etc., over the years. Good guy to deal with.
For a decent brush gun, it would be hard to beat a Rossi. A little rough around the edges maybe, but sound rifles. I just wish they were a little easier to come by, right now.

Glad to help.

Al

 

[Garand]

Just my $.02 worth, I bought a Chiappa M92 "Alaskan" w/ a 12" barrel in .44 mag as a bush, beat around rifle. It is more expensive, yes, but far more solidly manufactured than a Rossi and fully capable of shooting reloads at the high end of your reloading manual all day long (depending on how long your shoulder lasts). Surprisingly it feeds Lead semi wadcutters flawlessly. I buy my .44 cast lead bullets for $80/1,000, that's a lot of cheap shooting. Plus it takes down and when fitted in a skinner carrying case, nobody gives it a second look when you check into a motel.

 

[Alex McKr]

Garand: I have not had an opportunity to shoot one of the Chiappa Alaskan rifles yet. Hickock45 aired a review some time ago, profiling the 20" version. Also in . 44 Mag. He liked it. Aside from the big loop lever. But...that is only his personal preference. Otherwise, a very positive review.
I'm a longtime fan of the .44 Mag, too. A handy, lightweight '92 chambered for the caliber pretty much makes an ideal bush gun, in my view. Have seen some very nice Saskatchewan whitetail taken down with one.
Have used one of the Marlin 1895 "Cowboy" rifles, though. Chambered in .45-70. 18" barrel. That little number hits hard.....on both ends!

 

[jakester]

Hi all - Can anyone advise on what "normal" ejection with the 1892 looks like?

I've always heard that they are pretty energetic throwing brass, but are they also supposed to be consistent? As in, same general direction and distance thrown?

Mine in 45LC is very inconsistent, regardless of how fast you cycle it - Most types of brass will eject 100% of the time but all over the place (Fed, Rem, S&B). Winchester brass won't eject at all if it's the last round fired (no live round under it on the lifter). It extracts fine, but winds up sitting flat in the action. I haven't found any differences in brass dimensions between brands.

Loaded cartridges show strong ejection (with all types of brass).

Any input would be appreciated! Rifle problem, brass problem, or operator problem?

I did some work on one in 45 colt about 5 or 6 years ago. It had the same issue. The rim on the 45 colt cartridge is quite shallow and thin and doesn't have much area for the extractor to engage, plus the extractor tension wasn't great. I can't quite remember, but I either removed some material from the underside of the extractor, or from the recess in the bolt to allow the extractor to position itself closer to the center of the bolt, effectively providing more tension on the rim during extraction. Carefully stoning the extractor hook helped as well.

 

[Garand]

Garand: I have not had an opportunity to shoot one of the Chiappa Alaskan rifles yet. Hickock45 aired a review some time ago, profiling the 20" version. Also in . 44 Mag. He liked it. Aside from the big loop lever. But...that is only his personal preference. Otherwise, a very positive review.
I'm a longtime fan of the .44 Mag, too. A handy, lightweight '92 chambered for the caliber pretty much makes an ideal bush gun, in my view. Have seen some very nice Saskatchewan whitetail taken down with one.
Have used one of the Marlin 1895 "Cowboy" rifles, though. Chambered in .45-70. 18" barrel. That little number hits hard.....on both ends!

I used a Marlin M1894S for 14 years in CAS, sold it when I moved to a Uberti M73 Carbine in .45Colt. The Chiappa takedown is a nice little package, handles reloads exceptionally well from powderpuff loads to one that gives me 3" groups at 50 yds, a 240 grain CamPro bullet moving down range at 1,380 fps, not bad for a 12" barrel.. Previously I owned a 1906 Winchester M92, a Browning B92 and a Rossi M92 and had stovepipe issues with all of them, something I can't say about the Chiappa. The "D" ring lever is not that bad for fast manipulation, compared to the lever on the "John Wayne Commemorative" M94 that I have. When the weather warms up a friend has asked me to build and test some 300 grain cast lead bear loads for him. He's been trying to find a Chiappa since he shot mine in January.

 

[alpining]

I did some work on one in 45 colt about 5 or 6 years ago. It had the same issue. The rim on the 45 colt cartridge is quite shallow and thin and doesn't have much area for the extractor to engage, plus the extractor tension wasn't great. I can't quite remember, but I either removed some material from the underside of the extractor, or from the recess in the bolt to allow the extractor to position itself closer to the center of the bolt, effectively providing more tension on the rim during extraction. Carefully stoning the extractor hook helped as well.

Good info, thanks.