1898 Enfield
- Thread starter Billy The Kid
- Start date
Lee-Enfield Carbine, Mark I. (LEC I)
Built at Enfield, 1898.
VERY nice condition.
Correct ammo is Cartridge, Small Arms, .303 inch Cordite, Mark II, Ball.
Magazine is SIX rounds on the Carbine and ONLY on the carbine.
Rather effective on Fuzzy-Wuzzies, according to old-time reports.
Butt disc is normally for regimental markings. Check out your Major very carefully. British and Canadian service records ARE available, but you have to find the man first. Any M&D stamps on the butt that we can't see (Militia and Defence: Canadian)? If so, check Canadian records first. If such are not present, check through British records. If he won any decorations, they would have been Gazetted and that is online and free. There is a charge for a British Service record, but it is quite complete.
VERY nice toy!
I can't afford it!
What more do you need to know?
.
Built at Enfield, 1898.
VERY nice condition.
Correct ammo is Cartridge, Small Arms, .303 inch Cordite, Mark II, Ball.
Magazine is SIX rounds on the Carbine and ONLY on the carbine.
Rather effective on Fuzzy-Wuzzies, according to old-time reports.
Butt disc is normally for regimental markings. Check out your Major very carefully. British and Canadian service records ARE available, but you have to find the man first. Any M&D stamps on the butt that we can't see (Militia and Defence: Canadian)? If so, check Canadian records first. If such are not present, check through British records. If he won any decorations, they would have been Gazetted and that is online and free. There is a charge for a British Service record, but it is quite complete.
VERY nice toy!
I can't afford it!
What more do you need to know?
.
Thanks for the info smellie, it was abundant!
Markings on the buttstock are as follows:
Upper left of the brass circle is:
4
C A
2 6 4
Upper right of the brass circle is:
M & D
Under which has a circle which reads clockwise from the top:
Picture of a crown, M-DLEIFNE-R
Poor way of describing it, I know. Obviously, it spells Enfield when reading it left to right but what do the "M" & "R" represent?
Thanks tiriaq.
What is the signifigance of the magazine cut off to allow it to be fired single shot?
achtanelion
Regular
- Location
- Edmonchuck
Thanks tiriaq.
What is the signifigance of the magazine cut off to allow it to be fired single shot?
The powers that be were worried about the logistics of magazine fed firearms. The idea was that you'd have the magazine cutoff on all the time unless your officer told you you could take it off. That way the troops would only use up ammo at single shot rates.
J
LEC Carbine
There were 2200 Lee Enfield Carbines imported into Canada for the Military. This is a very nice piece. It is not cut down, and has the correct magazine. There should be a link on the front of the magazine to keep it from being lost. The markings on the Carbine are on the left side, the rifle on the right side of the butt socket. The bolt, receiver, barrel and rear sight should have serial numbers on them. If they match, you are golden. The six round magazine and forward sloping bolt handle with the flat on it are so that the rifle can be carried in a scabbard on a horse.
Some of these went to the Royal North-West Mounted Police. The picture of the butt stock below is an example. On the RNWMP Carbine, it is 3rd Squadron, D Division (Fort MacLeod to Fort Steele in southern Alberta and British Columbia.) This is an 1896 dated one. Unfortunately, Bubba took a chomp out of the forestock of my Carbine.
The unit markings 4 / CA / 264 are interesting. What makes it more valuable is the name on the ID disk. Officers were expected to provide their own kit, including firearms. The Name on the ID disk leads one to surmise that this was a private purchase.
Canadian Artillery was usually marked CFA for Canadian Field Artillery, and CGA for Canadian Garrison Artillery. I could not find a CA marking information in my reference books. The 264 is a rack number, that is this is the 264th. rifle issued to that unit. A bit of speculation here....a short rifle or Carbine makes sense in an Artillery or Cavalry unit. An officer would be mounted on a horse, so this Carbine is appropriate.
It is also important as to when the unit markings were applied. If after August 6, 1914, then the markings would indicate 4th. Battalion, Canadian Expeditionary Force (Central Ontario Battalion) which would account for the 4.
Is there a Broad Arrow or an Arrow within a C or an arrow with D^C stamped on it on the barrel or receiver? We are assuming that this piece is Canadian, but what if it was brought into the country by an Immigrant Military Officer? In checking SKENNERTON, the only reference to CA I found was for Austraulia, New South Wales, for Cadet Artillery.
The same Inspector's number A9 that is on your bolt, is on my RNWMP 1896 Carbine bolt. (A thought here---check out the RNWMP files for the name of the Officer ....they had to buy their kit the same as the Military, and a personal firearm would not have the RNWMP stamp branded into it.)
Anyways, the name gives you an interesting place to start. Markings on guns are a fascinating study, particularly on personal pieces.
A great find....good luck.
There were 2200 Lee Enfield Carbines imported into Canada for the Military. This is a very nice piece. It is not cut down, and has the correct magazine. There should be a link on the front of the magazine to keep it from being lost. The markings on the Carbine are on the left side, the rifle on the right side of the butt socket. The bolt, receiver, barrel and rear sight should have serial numbers on them. If they match, you are golden. The six round magazine and forward sloping bolt handle with the flat on it are so that the rifle can be carried in a scabbard on a horse.
Some of these went to the Royal North-West Mounted Police. The picture of the butt stock below is an example. On the RNWMP Carbine, it is 3rd Squadron, D Division (Fort MacLeod to Fort Steele in southern Alberta and British Columbia.) This is an 1896 dated one. Unfortunately, Bubba took a chomp out of the forestock of my Carbine.
The unit markings 4 / CA / 264 are interesting. What makes it more valuable is the name on the ID disk. Officers were expected to provide their own kit, including firearms. The Name on the ID disk leads one to surmise that this was a private purchase.
Canadian Artillery was usually marked CFA for Canadian Field Artillery, and CGA for Canadian Garrison Artillery. I could not find a CA marking information in my reference books. The 264 is a rack number, that is this is the 264th. rifle issued to that unit. A bit of speculation here....a short rifle or Carbine makes sense in an Artillery or Cavalry unit. An officer would be mounted on a horse, so this Carbine is appropriate.
It is also important as to when the unit markings were applied. If after August 6, 1914, then the markings would indicate 4th. Battalion, Canadian Expeditionary Force (Central Ontario Battalion) which would account for the 4.
Is there a Broad Arrow or an Arrow within a C or an arrow with D^C stamped on it on the barrel or receiver? We are assuming that this piece is Canadian, but what if it was brought into the country by an Immigrant Military Officer? In checking SKENNERTON, the only reference to CA I found was for Austraulia, New South Wales, for Cadet Artillery.
The same Inspector's number A9 that is on your bolt, is on my RNWMP 1896 Carbine bolt. (A thought here---check out the RNWMP files for the name of the Officer ....they had to buy their kit the same as the Military, and a personal firearm would not have the RNWMP stamp branded into it.)
Anyways, the name gives you an interesting place to start. Markings on guns are a fascinating study, particularly on personal pieces.
A great find....good luck.
Last edited:
Greenfields
CGN Regular
- Location
- Lower mainland BC
I hate you.
The closest I've ever gotten to a LEC is my bubba bring back fro South Africa.
Ok I don't hate you, but I did have lustful thoughts about your LEC. Is coveting someone else's gun a sin?
The closest I've ever gotten to a LEC is my bubba bring back fro South Africa.
Ok I don't hate you, but I did have lustful thoughts about your LEC. Is coveting someone else's gun a sin?
<--- The M&D stamp in my avatar is from my LEC. I bought it with my first paycheck (about 15 yrs old at the time ). The bolt serial number on these are commonly mismatched. If your is matching, consider youself lucky. If not, post the bolt number and we can all check what we have squirreled away to see if we can make up a matched set. It's a long shot, but hey, you never know.
). The bolt serial number on these are commonly mismatched. If your is matching, consider youself lucky. If not, post the bolt number and we can all check what we have squirreled away to see if we can make up a matched set. It's a long shot, but hey, you never know.
It is an Artillery Carbine. Artillery batteries prior to the first World War were suffixed C.A. if they were not from the Permanant army. This holds true for the few Independant batteries and Regiments that were around before the great war.I believe 4 C A were part of 2nd Arty Brigade and were Headquartered in Hamilton Ontario...any background on where the gun came from?...is the name actually Keefe? or O' Keefe?....I can search my miltia lists if I have the correct name. Cheers,Mike.
George Keefe
THis may be your man...shows prior service in 4CA....a PEI Man....I,m searching my PEI battery info now...cheers,Mike.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.02-e.php?image_url=http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc008/427693a.gif&id_nbr=484124
THis may be your man...shows prior service in 4CA....a PEI Man....I,m searching my PEI battery info now...cheers,Mike.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.02-e.php?image_url=http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc008/427693a.gif&id_nbr=484124
Yes...there was a 4th Heavy Battery and AC Headquartered at Charlottetown PEI as part of 6th Division. Commanded by Major J R Darke.
It would appear that perhaps Mr Keefe was promoted either during or after the First war and saw post war service,perhaps in the RCA. records from the first war could show his promotion and if not then post war militia lists need to be viewed.....I have some wartime lists and will check them next.....M
It would appear that perhaps Mr Keefe was promoted either during or after the First war and saw post war service,perhaps in the RCA. records from the first war could show his promotion and if not then post war militia lists need to be viewed.....I have some wartime lists and will check them next.....M
I should mention that it appears Keefe had previous service with the 82nd Abegweit Light Infantry of the Canadian Militia and enlisted in the 105th Battalion CEF (Charlottetown) which was broken down for reinforcements in the field. His WW1 service may then be with one of the line Infantry Battalions and not the Artillery. Still his name and the Rank of major engraved on a pre war militia Arty Carbine suggest that he may have have had some contact with his old unit after the first war.
hmmm...
...It seems our George Keefe formerly of the 4th CA died before leaving Canada for Overseas.....one still thinks thst there is some family connection...perhaps a father?
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/virtualmem/Detail&casualty=2755527
...It seems our George Keefe formerly of the 4th CA died before leaving Canada for Overseas.....one still thinks thst there is some family connection...perhaps a father?
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/virtualmem/Detail&casualty=2755527
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
The reason for the cutoff. Note, you Cannot load the carbine with chargers, each round must be individualy loaded. If the bad guys got real close you opened the mag cutoff and had a full magazine in reserve.
- Location
- West coast of Vancouver Island
Nice work lastmag.
