1917 BSA Lee Enfield

[ianwd]

I picked up this ol girl today at the Red Deer gun show.
and i juat happen to have floating around a 1917 wilkinson sword bayonet that goes nicely with it .

it has the mag cut off in place , the bore is shinny and crisp .
but it dont seem to have too many markings on it , BSA rifles on top of barrel and proof marks . but as i recall most rifles have a bunch of markings on the band under the bolt handle . this one dont?
also there is a stock repair

there is a stock dosk on it , but im only guessing here appears to be spanish!!!!! so any info ideas would be awesome ?

 

[Kernalvax]

Is there a parker hale logo and "ball burnished Barrel" on the barrel?
looks like a BSA target enfield not a military rifle put together by parker hale
I don't think the wood is orig to the rifle though


-T

 

[smellie]

Your BSA rifle is a COMMERCIAL rifle, not made for the British military at all.

Who bought it and who it was issued to, I have no idea. That marking on the butt disc could be Portuguese; Britain was supplying the whole Portuguese army at that time.

Hope this helps.

 

[Mike Webb]

To me the buttstock has obviously never met the forend before, the stock looks really weathered and oil soaked and the butt doesn't. Maybe it's just the pics.

 

[smellie]

The stock SHOULD look oil-soaked: it IS oil-soaked.

The stuff the troopies were given to clean and lubricate their rifles with was called "Rangoon Oil'. It was a petroleum product and about the consistency of SAE 5W. It's NOT good for the wood, of course, a vegetable-based oil such as BLO being much better, but the guys in the trenches just might have needed a rifle that they could SHOOT, so they didn't BLO the woodwork and then wait 3 days for it to dry before picking up the rifle. They used what they were given: Rangoon Oil. And if they DIDN'T use it, their Sergeant would EAT them! Or at least make them feel as if that had happened.

Anyway, the Rangoon Oil is why we de-grease the woodwork when we are restoring the things, then replace the petroleum-based oil with BLO to preserve the wood.

Anybody notice the repaired fore-end? It was repaired, and rather nicely fit, even if the colour of the wood is a mismatch.

The thing looks like crud in some ways but, the more you look at her, the more she tells you her history.... and she has seen a lot of it. This is one that I would love to tear apart, just to see what's UNDER the wood.

I would put 5 bucks on a Portuguese rifle, which makes it more than somewhat of a rarity, in that I have never seen a Portuguese-marked rifle, and I've been at this for almost 50 years now. And we must remember that, post-War One, a lot of the Portuguese rifles mouldered away in such sunny spots on the map as Angola and Mozambique, places where the climate is NOT conducive to spiffy old rifles. Compare this one to the poor critters who had to live in the jungles in Siam and you get what I mean. It's a miracle that anything survived, much less in as nice inside shape as this one is said to be.

NICE toy!

 

[ianwd]

Ok i took the ol girl appart
still not too much in the way of markings, the bolt isnt numbered (has small crown stamp) , but barrel reciever and rear sight all have same serial number

so a few more images maybe means something to someone
i put some talc on i to highlight stamps

the stock has a small not ledgible triangle under hand grip

inside bottom hand guard is stamped 1 8 5
so a bit of an enigma . as i have never seen one devoid markings .
ill see what the wood cleans up like , or she may be a candidate for some crisp wood when marstar gets some in .

 

[smellie]

Nix on the new wood, my friend.

Normally I would say 'go for it', but I really think that this one should be kept as-is, just work on degreasing and preserving the wood you have.

I think that you have something very unusual.

BTW, that is a commercial 5-digit serial number. Army marked theirs with 1, 2, 3 or 4 digits or digits plus a letter.

I am thinking that a letter to the IWM might not be out of place on this one, see if they have anything documented on Portuguese OR OTHER purchases during the Great War. For the commercial markings, I think this would be a PURCHASED rifle rather than one simply supplied out of British stocks, as were the rifles for the original Portuguese "Brigade" (actually a Battalion, but it was all that Portugal could send...... good friends even after 400-odd years). By the time yours was made, their contribution had been made up to a Portuguese "division" (actually a Brigade) on the Western Front. Who knows? Portugal might have bought some. especially for specialist formations as the butt disc suggests this one went to. IWM will have any surviving records. I know they were tremendously helpful when I was there.

But I think this one should be kept as-is.

 

[smellie]

Portuguese Army is still in business, tough as nails and they're still on our side. They have lost men in Afghanistan, too.

Their Army is small but it has pride and guts...... and it has SIX museums AND an Archive.

They also have a pretty-neat website which you should be able to find at exercito portugues. Goggle has a translator program, just in case you don't speak the language. Lotsa neat photographs, paintings, all that sort of thing. I was just looking at Portuguese troops embarking for Angola in 1914.

I would think some photos of this rifle to their Archive or to one of their Museums just might elicit some recognition.

On the other hand, you might have a 112-year-old Portuguese soldier turn up on your doorstep, wanting HIS rifle back!

I find that most Museum staffers, no matter where, will help if they possibly can find the time. They realise, as should we, that we all are in the business of preserving the past.

"Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana, among others.

 

[Kernalvax]

was the barrel bedded with cork?

 

[Forty4Forty]

ill see what the wood cleans up like , or she may be a candidate for some crisp wood when marstar gets some in .

Leave it alone it's no babba and original, of you want one for new wood get a sporterised and rebuild. BSA was only one of two factories making Enfields between the wars, and sold to foreign governments so even though commercial, where used in many army's outside Brittan. The stock disk must have some history, and one still with the cutoff is good, so please dont Babba.

Smellie just picked up this info, looks like BSA was making for the military during the war.

"However by 1915 there is a shortage of rifles (this may have been partially caused by Canadian soldiers abandoning their issued Ross Rifles, and reissuing themselves borrowed British rifles) so the British do 2 things. First they simplify the manufacture of the MkIII leading to the MkIII*. Production commenced in 1915 at BSA, with official approval of the MkIII*"

 

[ianwd]

well as the ol girl seems to be a bit of an oddity all i have done is clean it up and applied toung oil, thats as far as i will go
when degreased the forestock was quite light with a reddish shade
but darkened right up again when i applied toung oil.

i did find another mark on the barrel behind the rear sight . HV

I tried emailing lisbon museum but it returned , ill persevere
thanks for all the input guys

 

[smellie]

HV= High Velocity

Back sight bed ramp is ground for the Mark VII load: 174-grain bullet @ 2440 ft/sec nominal vs earlier (unmarked) specs for Mk VI: 215-grainer @ 2060 ft/sec.

Turned out very pretty.

Further deponent sayeth not.