1918 BSA SMLE No.1 MkIII* question

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mkrnel

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Was at a gunshow recently and saw this rifle calling out to me, no just kidding!

Anybody heard of the Indians swapping over a otherwise excellent condition (metal work) 1918 BSA SMLE's wood furniture for their new excellent condition Indian wood (looks like walnut) with their Ishapore screw and not stamping it as FTR'ed or any other markings for that matter. The metal parts are all BSA matching with still 95% bluing and the the bolt, action and sights are serial number matching and the barrel is original and the bore rates very good, shiny with strong sharp rifling, so they never dicked or changed out any of the metal work. The only markings on the rifle are BSA ones except British commercial proof marks and the word ENGLAND and the wood is completely devoid of any marks except the correct serial number stamped under the forend just behind the nose cap.

Would they not have normally stripped it down and swapped in whatever parts were in the bin when the arsenal replaced the wood?

Seems strange to me that a BSA SMLE is such nice general condition would have all it's wood swapped out for Indian Ishapore ones, it would be unlikely that all the original BSA walnut was damaged and needed replacing.

Also this is for my interest only, I am keeping the rifle and NO I am not going to be posting this rifle up for sale in the EE, it is a keeper.

Now some pictures for those that want to see what I am talking about.

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That's true, but if you look at the rear of the stock at the wrist you will notice it has the same metal clamp instead of a threaded brass rod or rivet as was common on all SMLE's except the late Indian Ishapore .308/7.62x51mm stocks. The thing that also has me scratching my head is the high quality of what appears like a hard dark walnut wood used in this stock set.

This stock was swapped over in the 1960's or later time period, now why is what has me confused, as judging by the rest of the rifles condition would lead me to believe the original BSA stock must have been also in very good shape, so why was all of the original stock replaced and not just the one piece that may have been damaged?
 
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Well at least with a number matching forend the chances of a non-original are greatly reduced.

Indeed if the forend was damaged you'd think only it would have been replaced; mystery!
 
Well, for one point the Indian Army was for many years regarded as semi-independent, as with the whole country. India might have been "the Empire" but there never was a huge effort to force it to adopt British practices in lockstep with the Mother Country.

In the earlier days, there were several "IP" (India Pattern) rifles which differed considerably from sealed British patterns of the same rifles. So you can EXPECT differences when it comes to Indian-made or Indian-Service rifles.

Now the woodwork. Indian Armourers developed stockwork from local woods in part because Walnut, ideal for Northern climates, was not standing up under the extremes of Indian climatic conditions. India is a huge country and it can be 105 degrees F with 95% humidity on the seacoast..... the same day that it is 35 below F and 20% humidity up in the mountains. To tolerate that is asking a huge amount from ANY wood and they had continual problems with trying to find woods which would handle the massive changes as Regiments and rifles were moved from one part of the country to another. In the end, they developed new stocks, many of them (as this one) somewhat oversized, mostly one type or another of mahogany, 'repaired' to prevent splitting even before they were installed. The "dreaded Ishy Screw", for example, is a FACTORY pre-repair to prevent forward-splitting and some of the wild inaccuracy when The Damned Crack lets go..... as it will if the wood fits properly and then is dried out suddenly by use in very low humidity for a period.

If I had been an Armourer and saw a really nice British rifle come in with a split-up stock and nice finish...... I just might swap things out for a really nice set of local wood. I think that is what has happened here..... and it sure looks pretty.

I have a post-Independence SMLE III* here which has had 3 rounds through it since it was built. It has the "dreaded Ishy Screw" in place and it has EIGHT threaded-rod repairs to the Forestock.... yet it is a brand-new rifle with all numbers matching. Simply put, it was built that way.

I think that yours is the result of your rifle having met up with an Armourer with some TASTE, who was having a very good day.

Congratulations on such a lovely old piece!
 
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Well thanks again for your very informative, well reasoned and knowledgeable diagnoses of this rifles unusual stock situation, it sure makes sense the way you lay it out there. Now that you mention it the wood does look very much like a nice piece of mahogany, I knew it was not a plain nondescript semi hardwood as it is very tight grained with nice areas of figure and seems a bit heavier and harder than the typical light coloured English or European walnut stock set. Your analysis of why the Indian Armourer swapped it all over to the new wood while keeping all the BSA metal and then not stamping it with Indian marking now makes more sense, as he really did not do a Factory Through Repair (FTR), just a preventative or cracked wood swap out on a already excellent shape Enfield. It also has a bunch of preventative small brass threaded rod screw in various locations.
 
smellie said:
I have a post-Independence SMLE III* here which has had 3 rounds through it since it was built. It has the "dreaded Ishy Screw" in place and it has EIGHT threaded-rod repairs to the Forestock.... yet it is a brand-new rifle with all numbers matching. Simply put, it was built that way.
Click to expand...

Would love to see some pix of that rifle.
 
Yes it has a stamped inspection/proof mark that is the same as the one just above the receiver vent hole in the picture on both sides and the letters PH on the flat just behind the bolt handle.
 
I should also mention that it is matched up with a also 1918 dated Wilkinson made 1907 bayonet. I think I was lucky to come across such a nice example even if it is in a Indian stock set.
 
mkrnel said:
Yes it has a stamped inspection/proof mark that is the same as the one just above the receiver vent hole in the picture on both sides and the letters PH on the flat just behind the bolt handle.
Click to expand...

Thanks for reply mkrel. This was why I queried because of the look of your rifle,......

My No1MkIII LsaCo 1916, matching but no number on the nose cap,.. looks very similar though there is what seems varnish lifting at places, has lots of year stamps running down the left side of the wrist however four years apart up to 1936, I guess by 1940 she was at war again and is not ishy screwed at all. You stock set looks sturdier somehow as well.

It got a BNP but no England export stamp. Smellie helped me cyhpher alot of it out a few years back, but the P-H where yours is, is what throws me off. Mine got an '18 barrel that is pristine to the point it looked almost new to my eye, guess a bore gauge would tell that for sure.
When I saw P-H after I bought it, I figured it was a sporter put back to full military, though the seller is a solid guy and said it was never that way, mine still had little bits of brown cosmoline trapped in places. If you find out what the P-H means, let me know. It may have been in Smellies original pm explanation to me, but it's lost now when I had to clear my folder and didn't uncheck it with others for delete.

My brass stock disc has 1 AA Reg't, S.A.A.F, and Smellie figured it went to the newly formed SAAF after 1920, . Those year stamps, struck every 4 years on the left wrist, I've never seen before myself.

It's also funny you posted "No" it won't be going on the EE. This is why I don't post many pic's pf things here it irks me a little to, to help someone their rifle who just found the pleasure of owning a rifle of empire, a veteran of the "War To End all Wars" and then see it thrown on the EE. Oh well, it gives us an opportunity to see things we may not normally see.
 
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Hi RememberTheSomme, the only info I have been able to find that explains the PH letters stamped on the wrist is an unconfirmed statement that identifies it as a Parker & Hale mark they would have applied to the rifle when it was in their hands. But I would defer the question to Smellie, as he is far more knowledgeable about these things than I.

My BSA rifle has only the one date marking, 1918.

I tend to post quality pictures now when talking about one of my rifles as I find it saves time in answering questions, and I know how much people sometimes need a visual to help them understand, also it helps people judge how their rifle rates to others.
 
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