1938 Turkish Mauser - safe to shoot surplus 8mm?
- Thread starter cpbird91
- Start date
I have shot plenty of ex-mil 8mm ammo (Yugo, Turk and Romanian among others) in a 1938 Turkish Mauser and they were all just fine, some were definitely hotter than others but the rifle handled them without signs of over pressure (bolt opened easily and brass extracted fine).
The issue with the very hot Turk ammo (I was getting about 3000fps out of the 29"barrel) is that it should never be used in semi auto weapons as the unsuitable burn rate for semi actions has been responsible for a number of damaged weapons firing them (both semi rifles and converted machine guns from case heads rupturing while being extracted with still high chamber pressures) it is safe to use in a good condition M98 based Mausers as that is what the ammo was designed and made to be shot in. It is based on the WW1 German issue ammo spec with the 154gr projectile and the Turks even used it in their converted 1888 Mauser's.
Also I find that with some batches I was getting a lot of hangfires or duds so I ended up pulling the bullets and powder from all of them, dropping about 3gr. from the average and using new pivi brass and they were quite accurate. And the supply of Turk ex-mil 8mm ammo has now completely dried up for many years now and it is very unlikely to find any except for small batches at gunshows.
The issue with the very hot Turk ammo (I was getting about 3000fps out of the 29"barrel) is that it should never be used in semi auto weapons as the unsuitable burn rate for semi actions has been responsible for a number of damaged weapons firing them (both semi rifles and converted machine guns from case heads rupturing while being extracted with still high chamber pressures) it is safe to use in a good condition M98 based Mausers as that is what the ammo was designed and made to be shot in. It is based on the WW1 German issue ammo spec with the 154gr projectile and the Turks even used it in their converted 1888 Mauser's.
Also I find that with some batches I was getting a lot of hangfires or duds so I ended up pulling the bullets and powder from all of them, dropping about 3gr. from the average and using new pivi brass and they were quite accurate. And the supply of Turk ex-mil 8mm ammo has now completely dried up for many years now and it is very unlikely to find any except for small batches at gunshows.
Eaglelord17
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Sault Ste. Marie
As mentioned I felt I would clarify the ammo a bit more. The idea that Turkish 8mm Mauser is overpressure and dangerous has been spread around by people who don't know what they are talking about and lack understanding as to what the round is.
The Turkish 8mm round is based off the WWI 7.92x57 round also called Patrone 'S' ('S' standing for Spitzer aka pointed in German). This round was a 154grn flat-based spitzer .323 bullet travelling at roughly 2880 ft/sec. The Turkish never updated to the later Patrone 's.S.' round which pretty much everyone else did (this being the 198grn boat-tail spitzer .323 bullet at roughly 2490 ft/sec).
Now what this means for civilian shooters is pretty much all semi-automatic 7.92x57 rifles (8mm Mauser) were chambered for the Patrone 's.S.' not Patrone 'S' which would generate a significantly different pressure cerve and potentially destroy semi-automatic firearms (and it has). This is what caused people to believe that Turkish 8mm is dangerous, simply because uneducated people used the wrong ammo in the firearm (think of it being the same as shooting Swiss 7.5x55 GP-11 ammo though a Swiss 1889 rifle in 7.5x53.5 GP-90, it generally will chamber, and it will explode as it wasn't designed for that type of pressure).
What this means is if you have a M98 action in good condition you should be fine. If it is a Turkish Mauser that is actually the ammo the sights would be regulated for (same thing for Gewehr 98s and the original Kar 98s). I personally wouldn't use it in a Commission 88/05 rifle even though it was done as they weren't the strongest rifle action to begin with (and there were documented cases of them blowing up in Turkish service, I recommend reading up on the Commission 88 rifles and doing a ton of research as to what to shoot out of them if you intend to).
I hope this helps clarify the confusion that can be caused by this particular round. It is odd that it is difficult to find good solid information on 7.92x57 (8mm Mauser) despite the fact it is one of the most common rifle rounds for military surplus.
The Turkish 8mm round is based off the WWI 7.92x57 round also called Patrone 'S' ('S' standing for Spitzer aka pointed in German). This round was a 154grn flat-based spitzer .323 bullet travelling at roughly 2880 ft/sec. The Turkish never updated to the later Patrone 's.S.' round which pretty much everyone else did (this being the 198grn boat-tail spitzer .323 bullet at roughly 2490 ft/sec).
Now what this means for civilian shooters is pretty much all semi-automatic 7.92x57 rifles (8mm Mauser) were chambered for the Patrone 's.S.' not Patrone 'S' which would generate a significantly different pressure cerve and potentially destroy semi-automatic firearms (and it has). This is what caused people to believe that Turkish 8mm is dangerous, simply because uneducated people used the wrong ammo in the firearm (think of it being the same as shooting Swiss 7.5x55 GP-11 ammo though a Swiss 1889 rifle in 7.5x53.5 GP-90, it generally will chamber, and it will explode as it wasn't designed for that type of pressure).
What this means is if you have a M98 action in good condition you should be fine. If it is a Turkish Mauser that is actually the ammo the sights would be regulated for (same thing for Gewehr 98s and the original Kar 98s). I personally wouldn't use it in a Commission 88/05 rifle even though it was done as they weren't the strongest rifle action to begin with (and there were documented cases of them blowing up in Turkish service, I recommend reading up on the Commission 88 rifles and doing a ton of research as to what to shoot out of them if you intend to).
I hope this helps clarify the confusion that can be caused by this particular round. It is odd that it is difficult to find good solid information on 7.92x57 (8mm Mauser) despite the fact it is one of the most common rifle rounds for military surplus.
Your informative post is a more detailed explanation then what I was prepared to go into but does cover what I said in more detail.
I always laugh to myself when I hear people say that Turkish 8mm ammo is dangerous and unsafe in any guns, semi autos, yes, but not bolt action M98 Mauser's! Especially after shooting well over a couple of thousand rounds of surplus Turk 8mm of many different batches and vintages in Mauser rifles without a single case of over pressure signs.
I'm not sure exactly what you have but I suspect it could be a German made 1903 action which is a large ring, intermediate length action with small ring threads. Excellent actions. You could also have a Turkish made 98 action which is basically a direct copy of the standard large ring Mauser M98. Either way, both are plenty strong as others have mentioned.
One thing I've observed with the Turkish made M98's is that they appear to have not been case hardened. I've inspected and tested probably 5 or 6 bolts that you could cut with a file very easily. I have also owned 3 actions where the bolt lugs were so badly worn that all 3 lugs fully engaged. There was significant wear on the third safety lug. Even without case hardening they must have fired thousands upon thousands of rounds through these actions. Crazy.
Any one else observe this?
One thing I've observed with the Turkish made M98's is that they appear to have not been case hardened. I've inspected and tested probably 5 or 6 bolts that you could cut with a file very easily. I have also owned 3 actions where the bolt lugs were so badly worn that all 3 lugs fully engaged. There was significant wear on the third safety lug. Even without case hardening they must have fired thousands upon thousands of rounds through these actions. Crazy.
Any one else observe this?
Yes, I have noticed their actions and bolts to be softer than say late war German K98's or Swedish M38 Mauser's, but I have never seen or used a unsafe one and I have owned about 4 of them and will admit they all had seen many decades of hard use and probably many thousands of rounds through them, but were all generally well looked after and not abused.
Some had their original barrels replaced which told me they must have shot out the original and seen lots of shooting use. The small ring thread M98 turks are in strong demand for building hunting rifles in the USA and are extremely strong and safe M98 Mauser actions.
Eaglelord17
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Sault Ste. Marie
I just felt the need to provide a more detailed explanation simply because it is a myth that is repeated constantly, and you need to refute myths with facts and logic. It wasn't to take away from your post which speaks for itself, rather to provide more information so people will understand why and how things are.
The firearms community has tons of myths and misinformation that we have to fight. The more people know and understand the better our position is. In recent years thanks to the internet it has finally given us the ability to fight myths and misinformation effectively. Things like the Arisaka and Carcanos being weak crappy actions are being disproven. Things like the M1 Garand is indestructible and can shoot any type of ammo through it is being disproven. Things like blatant lies about how our gun laws are protecting us, again are being disproven.
I have 3 m38 Turkish mausers and 1 88/05/35 Turkish commission rifle.
I wouldn't hesitate to fire any 8x57js ammo in any of the m38s and I have fired Turkish surplus through one of them and it was brisk but I observed zero pressure signs.
As for the 88/05/35, it will only eat lighter handloads as I don't feel like testing action strength with my face in the near future
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I wouldn't hesitate to fire any 8x57js ammo in any of the m38s and I have fired Turkish surplus through one of them and it was brisk but I observed zero pressure signs.
As for the 88/05/35, it will only eat lighter handloads as I don't feel like testing action strength with my face in the near future
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