<1moa 270wsm?

Keebler750

Keebler750

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Does anyone here get 1MOA out of their 270WSM?

I reload for mine and just bedded the action and I'm stuck at around 2MOA out of a 22" medium heavy fluted factory barrel on a Winchester Model 70 action. Barrel twist is 1 in 10". Bedding didn't change the accuracy at all. I'm disappointed!

I swear it was shooting better with factory ammo when I first got it.......and I even had a flinch then!!

On Jan 27 I had the beast at Milcun Marksmanship Complex for a snow practice and was hitting steel plates at 500M with it....but I want better accuracy.

I can hold a best of .4MOA up to my avg of .6MOA with my TIKKA, so I know I'm capable.

How can I make it more accurate? (get a new one?!!:rolleyes: ) What do you 'feed' yours?

I'm shooting 110gr VMAX with 71gr of H1000 behind it, with a 3250fps velocity at 40F. My main use is for coyote, but I want to be more sure of my kill zone at 300 to 600 yds. Would a change to a heavier bullet maybe be the ticket here?
 
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I have one and I don't think it has gone over 1" with anything I have used. What have you tried in bullets and powder?
bigbull
 
I tried factory Federal 130's and the reloads mentioned above....That's it. I stepped down to 110gr Hornady VMAX's for coyote...which I THOUGHT was a good idea at the time, but.......

The only powders I have used are H4350 and H1000. I switched to the latter because it filled the case better. This HASN'T changed accuracy at all. :( I have used Win LRM primers, and now Federal Match 215's. That didn't do anything either. Neither did bedding it!! I admit to being confused, at this point. Developing loads for my .223 Tikka Tactical was MUCH easier.

I'm really worried that I'll have the barrel burned out before I ever settle in on a load that works!!!!!
 
I was getting sub-moa regularily with 130gr Cor-lokts and H4831. I hover right around MOA with 140gr Accubonds and either Retumbo or Ramshot Magnum. Also had MOA with 130gr Interbonds and RL-19.
 
I shoot the 140 Accubond in front of H4831SC, equally the WMR. The others I have tried are W760, H4831 and RL22, they all worked well, I also use the WLRM primer in WW cases. As far as bullets try the Sierra I think they sell a 110 gr for Varmint hunting if you want a light bullet.
bigbull
 
Keebler750 said:
I'm shooting 110gr VMAX with 71gr of H1000 behind it, with a 3250fps velocity at 40F. My main use is for coyote, but I want to be more sure of my kill zone at 300 to 600 yds. Would a change to a heavier bullet maybe be the ticket here?
Click to expand...

H1000 is likely too slow for the 110 Vmax. Do you get alot of black around the neck and onto the shoulder? Try the 4831, and the 4350. I tried fed 215's in my 7/270SWM. They made the bolt lift harder, than the 210m's and made more of a bang, but the 210's were better on the target. I was shooting 65 gr H1000 with 180 gr Bergers with the 210's and 62gr with the 215's.

NormB
 
Floating the barrel on my 7mm rem mag P14 brought the groups down to 1/2 min of angle from 1 moa at a stroke with 120 grn noslers and 72grns of H1000.

PS the cases are a bit black around the neck though.
 
Say...what does black around the neck mean? Not expanding quick enough to seal?

I think I need to work on load development now that I don't flinch at all anymore.....

But....I've been looking at my barrel. With my notes, I figure I have 400 rounds through it at the most. The bore is really hard to get copper out of even when I try little tricks to soak it in copper solvent. (Stand it straight up with the chamber plugged, or run a patched rod up and down like a plunger with solvent above it - learned that one from a sniper book....) I can see major machining marks in the bore (what I can see of it), and I'm pretty sure I can see a difference in the lands at the end of the barrel...one is nice and squared up, the other three look rounded or worn. Also, I think the crown is done very poorly.

Tonight, I sat in my apartment choking on ammonia (Barnes), scrubbing again to be SURE it was clean. I put 25 rounds thru it today at the range. I sat it down dry and did something else for 1/2 hour and when I went back it was already rusting inside. (No, my apartment is not humid.)

When I hunt, or target shoot and come back to clean it, it is already rusting. I'm having a major problem with this...no matter what I do, other than patch right after each shot, I can't keep it rust free. That's got to affect accuracy.

This gun is a less-than-year-old Winchester M70 Coyote Lite with the 22" fluted barrel.

I'm wondering if this barrel isn't a piece of poo.

I bet a pencil barreled Tikka 270 would outshoot it!!
 
NormB said:
H1000 is likely too slow for the 110 Vmax. Do you get alot of black around the neck and onto the shoulder? Try the 4831, and the 4350. I tried fed 215's in my 7/270SWM. They made the bolt lift harder, than the 210m's and made more of a bang, but the 210's were better on the target. I was shooting 65 gr H1000 with 180 gr Bergers with the 210's and 62gr with the 215's.

NormB
Click to expand...

No black on the shoulder but 'some' on the neck. The velocity for 71gr H1000 is 3250 at 40F. What do you go by to know what is right? (and how do you deal with conflicting data for Max Loads?)

The H4350 was 3175fps for 60gr.

The H1000 filled the case better and gave me the same velocities, so I figured that was OK.

By the way, I've been doing this for 6 months, so I have ALOT to learn.
 
I figure the 110 Vmax should be up around 3400 or 3500 in the summer as factory 130gr is chrony'd at 3250.

I haven't tried lower velocities because I was aiming higher. hmmm. Why lower?

For seat depth I make up dummy loads and watch for marks on the bullet when chambering, and then back it out about .015" or whatever. It's the best I can do with what I've got.

Funny enough, my 270 dies had to be modified to give me the 2.700 OAL (which is were my seat depth wanted to be) with the VMAX bullets....I had to put a spacer in the top of the seat die threaded adjuster to make it seat it deep enough, which I thought was kinda wierd. It's screwed down all the way even with this mod.
 
Keebler750 said:
I figure the 110 Vmax should be up around 3400 or 3500 in the summer as factory 130gr is chrony'd at 3250.

I haven't tried lower velocities because I was aiming higher. hmmm. Why lower?
Click to expand...

I have found almost without exeption that accuracy deteriorates with higher velocities, I think you will notice an improvement at lower velocities. Try loading five batches of five with a 1 grain lower charges for each batch and find out what your rifle likes best with a particular bullet, then try a different bullet and repeat the exercise.

Keebler750 said:
For seat depth I make up dummy loads and watch for marks on the bullet when chambering, and then back it out about .015" or whatever. It's the best I can do with what I've got
Click to expand...

Experiment with the seating depths to see what it likes best with a particular bullet, don't worry about the bullet contacting the rifling, sometimes that makes the rifle shoot much better.

I am sure your rifle will shoot a lot better than it is now with the right ammo.

I remember you said you bedded the action but is the barrel floated ?
 
Keebler750 said:
No black on the shoulder but 'some' on the neck. The velocity for 71gr H1000 is 3250 at 40F. What do you go by to know what is right? (and how do you deal with conflicting data for Max Loads?)

The H4350 was 3175fps for 60gr.

The H1000 filled the case better and gave me the same velocities, so I figured that was OK.

By the way, I've been doing this for 6 months, so I have ALOT to learn.
Click to expand...

In another post you mentioned rust in the barrel during copper removal. This is not good. Change your cleaning regimen. Try Sweets. You mentioned lands mal formed at the muzzle, Recrown back of malformation. Get a hard nylon brush 1 calibre bigger than bore size. soak with oil and load it with USP bore brite paste or JB's or Iosso or Flitz. Use a good bore guide to keep rod from rubbing on bore and stroke it back and forth full length and in pulses up and down the bore. You could work the throat and just ahead more than the rest of the barrel. 50 times should be enough. This should smooth it out and remove rust, copper and carbon. Use patches soaked in solvent to clean out residue. They will eventually come out white.

If your cases come out with black on the shoulder, yes the powder is slow and the necks are not sealing. Usually happens with light bullets and slow powder. Gases can come back in enough volume to dent the case shoulder and body. Your H1000 load does not seem to do this. Some black on the neck is normal.

NormB
 
I've found the easiest way to get rid of the copper is to use a foaming cleaner like wipe-out. Spray it in leave it for 30min or so an wipe it out. No scrubbing and you bore is spotless with minimal effort.
 
Lots of good stuff here guys. Thanks.

I use a bronze brush...but I hate 'em. The solvent eats them and so they wear out real quick.

Where do you get the nylon ones? I've never seen one in any gun shops.

About the bore condition....I can see tool marks where the broach or whatever was chattering on the way through. It's no wonder this thing fouls so bad.

Also, it rusts almost as soon as I fire it. How do I deal with that? Seems like a material issue...does a stainless barrel avoid this? ....I wonder what mine is....?
 
Keebler750, I've bought nylon brushes at Wholesale Sports and Russel's here in Calgary. They're fairly common, maybe you were just not looking in the right spot at your local gunshop.
 
Keebler, Black nylon brushes by Kleenbore. The best I have used and available at all major gun stores(get the 7mm bore brush). Barnes is the best copper remover I have tried. I now use commercial grade Ammonia - dirt cheap and works 'better'.

You don't need to get to a copperless bore to shoot well. In fact, that may be part of your problem. The barrel is too clean.

This is what I would do to work up this rifle from scratch. Assume that the rifle is properly bedded, action screws properly tightened, scope base and rings tight and loctited, a decent scope that is holding zero.

With the load, I would immediately go to a faster powder for the 110gr Vmax. H4350 or H4831SC strikes me as being better choices. A fed 215M primer to light the fire.

Start by shooting 5 to 10 rds of whatever to foul the bore. Test from a cool barrel. Using proper load data, fire 2rds in 1/2 grain increments off a steady and solid rests/table. Let the barrel cool between groups. Look for where the groups shrink then expand. Likely, this will be in the upper range of your load data.

Repeat this time going up in 3/10 gr increments 1/2 gr under sweet spot to 1/2gr over sweet spot. Also, test the sweet spot load. You will find a load that works the best. Repeat this load over 3rds for a few groups to ensure that it is consistent.

You should be able to dial in a rifle in two to three range sessions and less then 30rd IF the rifle likes that bullet. You are using good components so that isn't an issue.

These powders tend to burn their most accurate in the 60000psi range. Shooting at lower pressures will cause irratic ignition. Will show up as enormous velocity variations. Odds are, that Vmax had better survive going at max velocity because that is likely where the barrel will like it.

DO NOT CLEAN YOUR BORE. Continue to test above to verify your accuracy nodes. I am suspecting that after you have fired 12 to 15rds down the pipe, things will settle down and the barrel will shoot more accurately.

Only clean the bore when your newly found accurate loads stops being accurate. That may be a whole lot more shooting then you are used to. If the bore does what I suspect, it will still shoot very well even when the bore looks green from copper fouling. The bore might shoot accurately after 50 to 100rds have been down the pipe.

As to the rust, that is very surprising. I have used Barnes and conc ammonia for years and not had any issues. After cleaning with these solvents, the metal is stripped of all oils. Just use a patch soaked in any gun oil and run through the bore. Let sit for a couple of minutes then wipe out with several clean dry patches. When the patch comes out clean, put it away (there is still a trace amount in the pores of the bore). Leaving the bore oily just makes the next range trip a big headache.

Unless there is something really wrong with the barrel and/or chamber, it should shoot MOA or so. Good luck.

Jerry
 
What makes you so sure what you are seeing is rust ? It seems like something else is going on here. If you were getting this problem in summer when the humidity is high I could with difficulty just about understand it, but not at this time of the year unless you are using corrosive primers or powder, and even then I doubt it would happen as fast as you describe.

Do you clean the oil from the barrel before you shoot ?


BTW have you floated the barrel ?
 
Whoa! Alot to reply....thanks for the insight and brainstorming.

1) I will look for proper nylon brushes.

2) Powders: I noticed a really good couple of groups with 73 - 74 gr of H1000 but it was at the end of a day, and I was discouraged from pursuing it by conflicting MAX data that I had found or discussed. Velocities were close to 3400 @ 40F as I recall. I was using the H4350 prior, but it doesn't fill the case very well. I think max is 63gr for that powder and bullet combo.

3) I'm going to work up a test regimen as suggested, using H1000, H4350 and I'll get some H4831SC as well.

4) With a 2MOA rifle, doing ladder tests might be inconclusive as 1 gr increments might overlap just from possible rifle issue. I'll have to figure something out.

5) Groups tighten as far as they will go after about 3 or 4 fouling shots with this rifle. Then they stay at ~2moa. My Tikka is 1st shot accurate if I dry patch.

6) I shoot 20 or 30 shots of .270 in a session if necessary, without having any recoil issues.

7) Accuracy hasn't changed from 3rd shot to 30th. I probably haven't shot much more than that in one day though.

8) My Tikka barrel is smooth inside and easy to clean (and damn accurate). My Winchester 270 is visibly rough and fouls badly.

9) I am sure it's rust inside. The patches are reddish brown instead of black or blue. I can FEEL the surface condition of the bore change as I continue cleaning. Also, after the Barnes cleaning I could see little orange dots forming on the edges of the lands at the muzzle end. I wish I had a borescope!

10) I would have to have a cleaning rod and oiled patches with me in the field to avoid rust after a shot. This is nuts.

11) My bedding job needs some attention. As I found out from that other thread...I need to relieve the bottom of the recoil lug, and the barrel had about one inch of compounded surface from the factory, which I repeated when I bedded it. I'll remove that and see what happens.

12) By the way, I noticed my Fed 215 primers were visibly different from one to the next. The purple goo inside was not even nor the same amount in each primer.....?!?!?

___________

WHew!! If nothing else this will be a great learning experience!
 
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