2 Marlin 30-30 rifles - an observation.

Eagleye

Eagleye

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To set the scene, I have 2 - Marlin 336 rifles, both chambered in 30-30 Winchester.
One is a regular carbine 30-30, with a 20" barrel. The other is a 336-A, with a 24" tube.

Both are Micro-groove, but the rifling is different from one to the other. The 336 carbine
has finer grooves and lands than the 336A. Both bores are pristine.

I have reloaded for these rifles since day 1 of ownership, and have developed loads they like.
Early on, I noted that the Carbine did not like the 160 grain plastic tipped bullets [FTX], but
the 336A shot them quite well. Best load in the carbine was the 170 Speer FNSP, chased by
a good load of Leverevolution. The 336A is more catholic in it's tastes, shooting many loads well.
It is not unusual to shoot moa with either if these rifles, using loads they like, but they likely
average closer to 1¼ moa with preferred loads. Both rifles wear low powered scopes.

Over the past 5-6 years, I had accumulated about 40+ rounds if various factory ammo, as
follows: 170 Winchester Silvertips, 170 grain Imperial KKSP, 150 grain Imperial Soft point RN,
Winchester 170 grain Power points, Remington 170 grain Cor-Lokt, and 2 rounds of Norma
170 grain SPFN.

I decided to get rid of the factory ammo at the range yesterday, so toted the 2 30-30's
out and all the factory ammo, plus a box of 170 gr. handloads that both rifles shoot well for
comparison purposes.

All the factory ammo shot reasonably well, staying in about 2½ moa, with one exception.
The 336 carbine with the Winchester 170 grain Silvertip [old style] Only 2 of 5 shots hit the paper
at 100M, and both hit sideways, indicating no stabilization. The 336A shot them well.

My control ammo shot great in both rifles, and all the other factory ammo shot good enough to hunt
with inside of 200 M. I'm betting those Silvertips were a bit undersize, and were not engaging the
very fine rifling of my carbine.

Out of curiosity, I took a couple of those 160 grain FTX bullets and measured their diameter - .3070"
The Speer and Hornady 170 SPFN measure .3076" The Norma 170s that I have are .3078"
I think I now know why the 336 carbine did not favor that 160 FTX - too small in diameter.

It is surprising what you learn, even after many years of background. You can imagine a guy buying
this Marlin years ago, plus a couple of boxes of those silvertips, and condemning the rifle because it
would not shoot them well. Sorry for the long story, just wanted to share. Dave.
 
This is yet another example of why we say "Try various types of ammo and find out what your rifle likes". (or what it does not like.)

Some ammo may not shoot well; it may not feed or eject well; it may not even go bang. Find out what works and stock up with it.

I have looked into some military rifles and ammo and found that the tolerances were such that the barrel could be .309 and the ammo could be .307. (IVI ammo in the FNC1A1)
 
Ganderite said:
This is yet another example of why we say "Try various types of ammo and find out what your rifle likes". (or what it does not like.)

Some ammo may not shoot well; it may not feed or eject well; it may not even go bang. Find out what works and stock up with it.

I have looked into some military rifles and ammo and found that the tolerances were such that the barrel could be .309 and the ammo could be .307. (IVI ammo in the FNC1A1)
Click to expand...

Try matching up a Lithgow No1 with a .317 bore with anything made for the military or even commercial use.

CIL used to make bullet diameters in .001 in increments from .307 to .325. All were 150 or 175 grain flat base, spire points, made to expand properly at moderate velocities.

The people at CIL knew their stuff back then and were willing to go the extra yard to make sure shooters, that hand loaded were supplied with bullets that fit their bores properly. That's all gone now. They used to package 50 bullets in little plastic, red/green/yellow trays with individual squares to keep them separated.

I don't know if you could purchase commercially loaded ammo with any of those bullets, other than the standard .308 or .312 diameters.
 
Below my 1950 Longbranch .303 British Enfield and my Winchester Jungle Carbine with a 16 1/2 barrel. :d

The Winchester was my favorite deer rifle for hunting in the woods. I loaded it with 150 grain .308 Hornady round nose 30-30 bullets and 748 powder with a magnum primer. I used the load data for the 30-30 Contender pistol because of its short barrel. Never had a Marlin because the Winchester Trapper model was more compact.

eNMuChI.jpg
 
Winchester post 64 parts quality is/was a toss up. However I have never heard of anyone having accuracy issues with thier Winchester 30-30. Rather mysterious the differences of micro groove barrel performance.

Maybe someone else can add to my post?
 
bearhunter said:
Try matching up a Lithgow No1 with a .317 bore with anything made for the military or even commercial use.

CIL used to make bullet diameters in .001 in increments from .307 to .325. All were 150 or 175 grain flat base, spire points, made to expand properly at moderate velocities.

The people at CIL knew their stuff back then and were willing to go the extra yard to make sure shooters, that hand loaded were supplied with bullets that fit their bores properly. That's all gone now. They used to package 50 bullets in little plastic, red/green/yellow trays with individual squares to keep them separated.

I don't know if you could purchase commercially loaded ammo with any of those bullets, other than the standard .308 or .312 diameters.
Click to expand...

Back in the day, a lot of folks put down CIL, they may have even killed the ammo production. I think American advertising and hype was behind that. I was always impressed by CIL, they made decent, fairly hot ammo, and were an innovative company.
 
John Y Cannuck said:
Back in the day, a lot of folks put down CIL, they may have even killed the ammo production. I think American advertising and hype was behind that. I was always impressed by CIL, they made decent, fairly hot ammo, and were an innovative company.
Click to expand...

So true. A close friend of mine was shooting a 38-55 as a deer rifle in the late 50's, and the Winchester and Remington offerings [when you could find them] were at around 1250 fps for
that big 255 grain SPFN bullet. The "Dominion" offerings were at 1600 fps, quite a bit of extra oomph. I actually had a few stray loadings from the era, accumulated over the years, so I
shot them out of my M94 Reproduction 38-55, just to see what the velocities were. As follows from my notes:

Remington 255 Grain SPFN - 1223 fps avg.
Winchester 255 grain SPFN - 1178 fps avg.
Dominion [CIL] 255 grain SPFN 1596 fps avg. [near dead on advertised velocities]
Really old CIL 255 grain SPFN 1645 fps avg.

These were all fired in a 24" barrel, so velocities in a 20" would be a bit slower.
The Remington ammo was headstamped U.M.C [Union Metallic Cartridge], so obviously was old.
No cases split on firing, and all hit the 100M target somewhere.

The ammo quality only started to deteriorate when IVI took over. Prior to that, It was good
quality ammo. THe "Kling-Kor" softpoint design stayed together quite well also. I have a 180
grain KKSP recovered from a muley buck shot around 1960. [30-06] it is a classic mushroom
that still weighs 125 grains. Dave.
 
Brutus said:
Winchester post 64 parts quality is/was a toss up. However I have never heard of anyone having accuracy issues with thier Winchester 30-30. Rather mysterious the differences of micro groove barrel performance.

Maybe someone else can add to my post?
Click to expand...

I can, he's talking about Marlin firearms not Winchester...in caliber 30-30 Winchester.
 
Some old CIL 250 Savage 100gr KKSP's had a 3 gr difference of powder in the same box! Was going to ditch the gun but was advised to pull some bullets. Glad I did because loaded with 30gr/IMR3031 in a 1-14" Savage 99 they shot 1/2 MOA.
 
My new Marlin 336C Seems to hate the handloads I put together for it. Hornady 170 grain Interlock with 30 grains of IMR 4895. Was getting worried I either bought a dog or just suddenly suck that bad until I bought a box of Federal 170 grain, and groups tightened right up.

Who knows.
 
Never had a 30-30 that didn't like Win 748/mag primers/170gr -32gr.....................................150gr -34.5gr
 
Yes ................but I use mag primers in everything but cast.Cold weather ignition insurance.Good Luck with the loads.I think you will like them.
 
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