2 Newbie Grouping Questions

[Craig67]

Got a couple of grouping questions for you experienced shooters.

The rifle in question: Savage 10 FLP, 10X40 Bushnell 3200 series, TPS base, Burris Signature rings, Harris BR bipod. All shooting done using the bipod.

The ammo: 45gr Varget, 168 gr Hornady BTHP Match bullets, RP cases, WLR primers.

Range: 100yds

I got a nice 0.478" , 4 shot group .... plus a flyer 1.15" low and left. I've noticed during load development that I almost always get a first round flyer. I shoot 5 round groups, 1 min between shots, minimum 5 min between groups. Is this flyer due to "cold barrel" or is it due to something else ?

2nd question : What group size should I be looking for ? 0.478 is the smallest group I've ever shot (at 100 yds) , should I end load development here or keep tinkering ?

Thanks,

Craig

 

[tiriaq]

Was the flyer the first shot? Was it a called flyer? Really, a single 4 shot cluster doesn't isn't all that definitive. Can you fire all your shots with well under half a minute variation in your aim/hold? What the rifle will do day in, day out is a better measure.
Not very many folks use RP for match brass. Winchester is more often seen, or better yet, Lapua. Is your brass uniformed and prepped? all one lot? The load you are using is pretty standard, and should shoot well. You might experiment with seating depth/bullet jump.
With an unaltered factory rifle, if your groups are consistantly close to minute of angle, that's good. Occasional smaller groups will occur, there are going to be larger ones as well. The number of out of the box rifles that will consistantly shoot 5 shot groups solidly less than a minute isn't all that large. Let alone 10 shot groups.

 

[maynard]

How often are you cleaning the bore? Has the rifle been bedded? Has your brass been weighed and batched? Even Lapua brass should be weighed and batched, RP just having more batches. Maybe try some match or benchrest primers. Are you throwing the powder or weighing each charge?

 

[Mystic Precision]

Bed the action.

Then work up from 44gr in 2 tenths till you get to 45.5gr. This will tweak the load as much as possible. Using match primers doesn't hurt but at short range probably not that big a deal.

Have you shot more then one group? Keep shooting 3 to 5rds groups until you get a composite of what the rifle will do on average.

Sometimes you do get a screamer group. That is excellent but in general, Savages tend to hover right around 1/2 to 3/4MOA over the long haul.

If that is what you get, be thrilled. That is fantastic accuracy.

You can also change the bullet to say a Nosler comp 155gr or Amax 155gr. sometimes QC in bullets will allow the occasional bad one in the box.

I prefer to neck size using a Lee collet neck die to min. runout. There is no shortage of info on brass prep but it looks like you have a solid start.

If that flyer is always in the same place, then that is something that can get resolved. If you get a flyer at random, maybe it is you, the rests, the conditions, and/or the load.

Being consistent enough to shoot small groups all day long is not easy, regardless of the rifle you shoot.

Jerry

 

[Craig67]

I can see I left out some info

Brass Prep: None.I'm using the same 20 pcs of brass for loading, they started out life as a box of UMC 150gr FMJ so I guess the brass is from the same lot. Neck sized using a Lee collet die.

Primers: Having trouble getting CCI BR-2's, Higginson is out right now, but will switch to them when I can get them.

Powder: Each charge is weighed.

Bullet Seating : Bullets are seated long ( 2.820) just touching what I think is the rifling. I determined the seating depth by seating a bullet very long and then chambering it in the rifle. Measured out at 2.820.

Rifle: Other than what I mentioned in my first post, its stock. No modifications done. I always make sure the action screws are tight before shooting , and run a piece of paper between the barrel and stock to check the free float.

Cleaning: At first I was cleaning after ever 5 round group. I have since changed to after every 20 rds. Groups seem to be tighter since I have started cleaning less, but that might be due to changing loads also.

The Flyer: As I mentioned in my initial post, its always the first round. Sometimes its low left, sometimes low right, occasionally at 10 or 2 o' clock.

Also, I've only fired that one 5rd group of that particular load. Since it looks promising, I'll load up 20 and shoot more groups.

Me: Experienced shooter, have been shooting since 1980. Been on a couple of Military shooting teams (small bore). New to precision rifles though. Newbie to reloading. I don't claim to be an expert and am willing to learn.

Craig

 

[maynard]

Just because the brass is from the same lot# does not mean it all weighs the same. Weigh them and find out. Run a couple hundred rounds through the rifle before cleaning the bore. I think cleaning is way over rated unless the barrel is a fouler. Cleaning only makes the QM guy happy, how often did you clean your smallbore rifle?
When my 40X was in the original wood stock you could count on the first 2 sighters to be high right, everytime.

 

[Mystic Precision]

craig, keep doing what you are doing. Maybe you need a bit of a warm up. Maybe not.

Keep to the same load so you eliminate one major variable.

If the rifle ALWAYS throws the first shot no matter what happens, then you will just have to anticipate needing one 'sighter' before shooting for group.

My guess is that if the rifle is bedded and now stable, your loading practise consistent, the problem will go away with more trigger time.

This will go against the grain of many but weighing the brass solves nothing.

What this is trying to help you with is finding brass with the same capacity. Case capacity affects load pressures and thus barrel tuning.

Having brass that is as identical to each other is the goal. With factory US brass, there is enough machining variance in the extrator groove that weighing solves nothing.

What you can do if interested is fireform brass, trim to length, deburr, then pour a very fine gunpowder into the case to fill it up completely. Tap on the case to make sure you are getting in as much as possible.

Now just dump that into the next case and settle. Repeat. You will quickly find any case with a significant difference in case volume. Put those aside.

The remaining cases go ahead and weigh them. I bet they vary more then the amount the weighing method is looking for. Also, weigh some that you culled. I bet you find some that weigh within the acceptable limits of the same volume brass.

Been there, sorted way to many cases this way for nothing.

The final test is to shoot them for accuracy. If you get a flyer, mark that brass. If that case throws a flyer again, cull it. Now you know that the cases are as identical as humanly possible.

I do use a lot of WIN brass but also have used REM with excellent results. Tried the Euro stuff but never found much benefit in factory rifles. Accuracy potential just isn't high enough to see any difference.

Good luck.

Jerry

 

[Craig67]

I think cleaning is way over rated unless the barrel is a fouler. Cleaning only makes the QM guy happy, how often did you clean your smallbore rifle?

I'm starting to think the same way . I only cleaned the barrel at the end of the season, but it wasen't a real target rifle, just a C1 with the .22 conversion kit.

Jerry, thanks for all the info, I'll start looking my cases over.

Thanks all,

Craig

 

[smak_daddy]

I just started shooting my custom remington again.

One thing I noticed was that I would shoot 5 shot groups, 3 shots would "clover leaf" nice and tight, then the next 2 would "clover leaf" about 3/4" away.

After much tinkering I found out I was not putting my cheek and eye in the EXACT same place. Once I started ensuring my eye and cheek was in the same place mysterious fliers were a thing of the past.

Thats not to say I still don't pull shots, but they are no longer as much of a mystery.

For the record I wait about 1 minute in between shots and closer to 10 minutes in between 5 shot groups.

My 308 load:
==========

R-P brass Lee collet die, neck sized only
155 gr SMK
I keep brass length between 2.005 and 2.015, I don't bother weighing them
CCI 200 primers (I didn't find match primers my last time at the gun shop)
46 grains Varget, each charged measured VERY carefully
2.800 OAL

Today at the range this load fired two five shot groups: .4" and .25". It was the winner of all the loads I tested.