20 Round/Garand Rifle

C

Clancy

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Gentlemen,
Here is the photo and some data on Mr. Garand's 20 round detachable mag. Rifle. Ordnance turned down this rifle. The year is 1920. BTW I will be running a SALE on Vol. 1 and 2 of the Garand Papers. Email me for info. garandm1rifle@rnc.com
Have fun with this one.
a82bd7b3.jpg

http://www.garandm1rifle.com
Thanks again for taking the time and effort to read this.
Clancy
 
Sigismund said:
so why did they chose the 8rd m1 over the 20rd m1 ?
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U.S. Army would not adopt a rifle with a protruding magazine due to the possibility of it getting tangled up in webbing and personal equipment.

Also, ammo issues. Give a soldier 20 round mags and he's going to use them. Requires more ammo and more pressure on the logistics of getting that ammo into the field. It was 1920 after all.
 
Sigismund said:
interesting, yet, to me, it seems they went back to this concept with the m14
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They did. But 1957 was a lot different than 1920.

Then they did the unheard of and adopted a rifle that WAS NOT .30 caliber, but a pipsqueek .22.

Actualy, the Italians made a Garand with a 20 round mag called the BM59.
 
indeed, ofcourse, you need to walk before you can run, but its interesting they had the concept in the 1920's.

wonder if any of the above models survived and are in collector hands.
 
indeed, ofcourse, you need to walk before you can run, but its interesting they had the concept in the 1920's.
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youd be surprised at all the semi automatic rifles made during and right after ww1. here is a picture i have. sorry, the writing is in itialian

watermark.php


Germany
44-1 - Mauser 1902
44-2 - Mauser 1906/08
44-3 - Mauser 1916

Denmark
45-1 - Mauser 1896

Italy
46-1 - Cei-Rigotti 1890

Mexico
47-1 - Mondragon 1908

the russians also experimented with a select fire "assault rifle" firing captured japanese 6.5mm ammunition, but the bolsheviks stopped it. stupid fools

As for that garand, it looks very heavy! And im sure the 20rnd magazine would have become a handicap.
 
Gentlemen,
You must also remember that NEW TERROR WEAPON of WW1. The Airplane. IN WW1 it was low and slow in attacking ground units. Ordnance wanted troops to have some firepower against this new weapon. Sorry, it's just data in the files.
Thanks again
Clancy
 
The primer set back about 1/32" to operate the action. It worked well with Pyro DG powder loaded in the M1906 ctg but not with the IMR pdr loaded in the M1 30 cal ctg which was introduced in the early 20s. Garand developed an entirely new gas operated system due to this. It is discussed in "Book of the Garand" Hatcher.
 
thats for the link f_soldaten, i had seen the danish rifle before, yet i thought it was used as a support mg, like the BAR.

i know the krauts didnt move forward with semiauto rifles because their main firepower was going to be with the mg's, although they changed their minds later on.
 
sigismund, you are thinking about the madsen lmg. I believe the Danes sold it to the Gerries, as well as commercially. How grand it would have been to be a Dane! Madsens for everyone! YAY! That semiautomatic rifle must be based on it.
 
During World War 2, Springfield Amory in Springfield, Mass. developed the T20-series of rifles. This rifle was a selective fire design that was modified to accept the BAR 20-round magazine. Various compensators and muzzle breaks were tired along with a modified gas system. The last models of the T20 used the roller locking lug found on the T44E4 rifle, type standardized as the M14 in 1957.

The T20 rifle pioneered the selective fire design later applied to the T44 (M14) rifle. If the war in the Pacific would have continued into 1946, the T20 rifle would have probably been put into production due to the additional firepower it would have given the individual infantry soldier. As it was, the T20-series still had bugs that continued past the end of the war and the project was shelved until the Army decided on the 'Lightweight Rifle Project.'

The LWP was an attempt to design a rifle in the weight range of the M1 carbine that fired a cartridge equivalent to the .30-06 from a 20-round magazine, and deliver either semi-automatic or full-automatic fire. During the LWP design phase, the .30 caliber cartridge was downsized to the T65E3 (7.62x51 mm NATO) and three separate rifles were designed to fire it: T25, T47, and T44. The T44 was a product improved T20 (which was a redesigned M1).

The T25 and T47 designs were dropped in favor of the T44. By that time, the T44 was in competion with the FN FAL design called the T48. In a continued series of head-to-head trials with the FN designed T48 rifle, the T44E4 tied with the T48. Assured by Springfield Armory that the T44 could be more cheaply manufactured using existing M1 production machinery, the Secretary of the Army type standardized the T44 as the M14 rifle in 1957. It was later found out that Springfield had to replace its M1 tooling to produce the M14, but that was after the decision had been made.

In a curious quirk of fate, the last design done by John C. Garand before he retired from Sprinfield Armory was the 20-round magazine for the T44 (M14) rifle. Mr. Garand designed a simple box magazine that had the lowest stripping force for 7.62 NATO rounds of all contemporary magazines chambered for this caliber (FN FAL and Commonwealth, G3, CETME, BM59, AR-10 rifles).
 
When American troops entered Japan at the end of WW2, they found that the Japanese were in the process of reverse-engineering the M1 Garand semi-automatic rifle. The Japanese version of the Garand had many of the Arisaka's physical characteristics but it had a magazine that projected below the rifle to accomodate the extra two 7.7mm rounds. The rifles were prototypes and it is doubtful that, given Japan's lack of raw materials at the time, whether they could have been put into production.

I recently saw one of these Japanese 7.7mm Garands come up for sale on another site. The rifle was not complete, as it's stock had been severely damaged at some time. Given the few numbers produced, it should still command a very good price.

The Italians produced M1 Garands under license at the Breda and Beretta firms. Later on, when the 7.62 NATO cartridge was adopted, Beretta redesigned the M1 into an equivalent of the U.S. M14 rifle. It was called the BM59 and used 1/3 original parts from a Garand, 1/3 modified parts from a Garand, and had 1/3 new parts. The Beretta firm offered conversion services for countries that held large stocks of M1 rifles.

The Beretta BM59 series of rifles probably had the most expensive magazine ever designed for a rifle; it had a solid aluminum milled follower and was heavily over-engineered. The Italians issued the rifle in the standard infantry version and a folding stock version for special forces and paratroopers called the BM59-Ital. There was also another rifle called the BM62 that was a more austere version of the BM59 without all its bells and whistles.

MG
 
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